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"How the UK became one of the poorest countries in Europe"

468 replies

user1471452428 · 26/10/2022 22:09

www.theatlantic.com/newsletters/archive/2022/10/uk-economy-disaster-degrowth-brexit/671847/

Article in The Atlantic. When people post about declining living standards, they're often shouted down- but I think it's pretty clear that it is real and here to stay.

OP posts:
TheNosehasit · 29/10/2022 07:50

Believeitornot · 29/10/2022 07:48

40% of it is on pensions

4/10 people on universal credit are already working but are underpaid.

It makes sense to me. What do you expect in a low wage economy? Where workers protections have been stripped and pensions gouged?

State pensions? 40% of our expenditure on social protection goes to pensioners? Didn't they work all their lives?

TheNosehasit · 29/10/2022 07:50

I'm not buying these figures.

Believeitornot · 29/10/2022 07:51

MarshaBradyo · 29/10/2022 07:47

Why not? Pensions are included. And benefits

But you can see why the government face the issues they currently are wrt inflation matching rises. The expenditure is high and takes up a lot of tax payer money.

Those pensioners were (and still are) taxpayers too!

As I’ve already said, wealth is concentrated in a small pool of people which means less for everyone else.

e.g banks take a big chunk of our income as we have to pay over the odds for mortgages. This leaves less for people to save and invest for pensions. So funnily enough they need to claim for state pensions.

Our population is living longer but is unhealthy - in part due to our unequal economy. So it costs more to keep them alive.

A more equal society is a more health society and needs less of a safety net.

Believeitornot · 29/10/2022 07:51

TheNosehasit · 29/10/2022 07:50

I'm not buying these figures.

You can find them on government websites.

Seriously, do some homework.

TheNosehasit · 29/10/2022 07:52

Believeitornot · 29/10/2022 07:43

Social protection = biggest chunk is pensioners

Health = a big chunk with be paying for PFI

We have 66 million people in the country. Of course the numbers are big.

That's why we have percentages. To compare numbers relatively. 🙄

Believeitornot · 29/10/2022 07:53

TheNosehasit · 29/10/2022 07:50

State pensions? 40% of our expenditure on social protection goes to pensioners? Didn't they work all their lives?

Yes and they paid taxes. Do you remember Margaret Thatcher crowing about smashing the unions? The unions would have helped protect pensions and made sure companies maintained pension pots taking the burden from the state.

Oh and now look where we are.

Our state pension is also the lowest in Europe.

TheNosehasit · 29/10/2022 07:53

Believeitornot · 29/10/2022 07:51

You can find them on government websites.

Seriously, do some homework.

I have. And nothing is adding up.

Believeitornot · 29/10/2022 07:53

TheNosehasit · 29/10/2022 07:52

That's why we have percentages. To compare numbers relatively. 🙄

What’s your point?

MarshaBradyo · 29/10/2022 07:53

Believeitornot · 29/10/2022 07:51

Those pensioners were (and still are) taxpayers too!

As I’ve already said, wealth is concentrated in a small pool of people which means less for everyone else.

e.g banks take a big chunk of our income as we have to pay over the odds for mortgages. This leaves less for people to save and invest for pensions. So funnily enough they need to claim for state pensions.

Our population is living longer but is unhealthy - in part due to our unequal economy. So it costs more to keep them alive.

A more equal society is a more health society and needs less of a safety net.

Of course. That wasn’t the point.

Tax comes in and that list is the expenditure.

It’s highlighted the inflation matching issue and where spending can be cut and the political difficulty in that.

TheNosehasit · 29/10/2022 07:54

Believeitornot · 29/10/2022 07:53

Yes and they paid taxes. Do you remember Margaret Thatcher crowing about smashing the unions? The unions would have helped protect pensions and made sure companies maintained pension pots taking the burden from the state.

Oh and now look where we are.

Our state pension is also the lowest in Europe.

Which is precisely why I don't believe those figures!

MarshaBradyo · 29/10/2022 07:54

TheNosehasit · 29/10/2022 07:53

I have. And nothing is adding up.

Can you read up instead of flip out. If you find what you are looking for link it.

Believeitornot · 29/10/2022 07:55

MarshaBradyo · 29/10/2022 07:53

Of course. That wasn’t the point.

Tax comes in and that list is the expenditure.

It’s highlighted the inflation matching issue and where spending can be cut and the political difficulty in that.

The government has other options than cutting spend.

Austerity doesn’t work - since 2010, the government has massively cut spending (and we can see it around us), but the debt before covid and Brexit ballooned? Why is that?

Believeitornot · 29/10/2022 07:56

TheNosehasit · 29/10/2022 07:54

Which is precisely why I don't believe those figures!

This isn’t religion.

Maybe I’m used to seeing the numbers because I’ve worked in government before.

MarshaBradyo · 29/10/2022 07:58

Believeitornot · 29/10/2022 07:55

The government has other options than cutting spend.

Austerity doesn’t work - since 2010, the government has massively cut spending (and we can see it around us), but the debt before covid and Brexit ballooned? Why is that?

Right now the markets are judging any fiscal gap.

It has to match or there is further damage. The pound is up and borrowing down because they feel reassured the gap will be closed.

How - we’ll find out at the Autumn statement but it won’t include spending that outstrips tax receipts by a lot.

Pinkcadillac · 29/10/2022 07:58

I suspect the unemployment figures need to be taken with q pinch of salt. The inactive population is now reaching 5 million and a high percentage of people in employment work only part time, a handful of hours per week.

TheNosehasit · 29/10/2022 07:58

Believeitornot · 29/10/2022 07:56

This isn’t religion.

Maybe I’m used to seeing the numbers because I’ve worked in government before.

And what did you see there?

DoubleDinnurs · 29/10/2022 08:00

FiveMins · 26/10/2022 22:51

The number one reason is the cost of housing. Rental or buying. The lack of affordable housing isn't by accident it has been a way of ensuring the voting majority vote for whoever makes sure their nest egg goes up in value. Young (renters) people hardly vote compared to older people (mortgage owners). Older people especially homeowners are proportionately right wing so the obvious thing to do as a party who wants votes is to ensure that house prices keep on rising. This keeps the votes coming to the party doing that BUT fucks up the poorer younger voters. However they tend not to vote or vote leftwing so who gives a fuck.

Agree with this. From a personal point of view and a renter at 40 I'm beggining to not really give a fuck anymore about trying as I don't think we have good social mobility in this country and making an effort to get ahead is futile. I earn an average wage as does my partner, so have a good household income. We have always been frugal and still can't get on the property ladder. Meanwhile my mother who stacked shelves as a single parent with three kids to care for could back in the 90's. She survived on income support when we were young so no childcare costs, then got offered to buy her council house with no deposit. Things needed to go to shit back in 2008, but our government carried on with low interest rates and QE, so myself and younger people have always been chasing ever increasing values while our wages did not keep up. I had a lot of friends from abroad live here. They have all gone home and they couldn't build a future here. That was when I realised we were a bit shit and had massively over estimated ourselves as a country.

I could try and get promoted, but I'm NHS and the wage structure says I would earn little more than 500 pounds a year for much, much more responsibility and it won't change for two years. The wage structure in the NHS is bonkers and its ridiculous that I could live in the northeast and get paid the same when what I pay for a small flat here would get you a four bed detached house at least there. And before someone suggests moving - I don't want to uproot my family and move away from my parents and siblings. I want to live in my hometown. Anyone filling my role will just have the same issues anyway.

What i want to know is why austerity for so many years increased the deficit when it was supposed to be shrinking it, and why we seem to think it is the best strategy now. We are really in a bad position where every option to fix this mess is very, very painful. I think they are just going to let inflation run rampant unfortunately.

TheNosehasit · 29/10/2022 08:00

Pinkcadillac · 29/10/2022 07:58

I suspect the unemployment figures need to be taken with q pinch of salt. The inactive population is now reaching 5 million and a high percentage of people in employment work only part time, a handful of hours per week.

None of this adds up I'm afraid.

There is absolutely no fucking way that more than a quarter of our expenditure is on Social Protection. NO FUCKING WAY.

Show me the figures that back that up.

Believeitornot · 29/10/2022 08:01

TheNosehasit · 29/10/2022 07:58

And what did you see there?

Big numbers! It all adds up.

Get out your calculator and work out £114billion dividend by 12 million pensioners for example - this isn’t precise but it just to get the scale in your head.

114,000,000,000 divided by 12,000,000

Kendodd · 29/10/2022 08:02

I'm In EU City, (after queueing for ages in the 'all other passports' queue at airport) . Was watching China Global News last night, so hardly remainer central, they were talking about the UK and none of the experts could see a positive economic future, or, a way to turn this around. A great deal of this outlook was put down to Btexit by all of the experts.

TheNosehasit · 29/10/2022 08:02

Believeitornot · 29/10/2022 08:01

Big numbers! It all adds up.

Get out your calculator and work out £114billion dividend by 12 million pensioners for example - this isn’t precise but it just to get the scale in your head.

114,000,000,000 divided by 12,000,000

12 million pensioners in the UK? None of whom have a private pension?

Believeitornot · 29/10/2022 08:04

TheNosehasit · 29/10/2022 08:02

12 million pensioners in the UK? None of whom have a private pension?

www.gov.uk/government/statistics/dwp-benefits-statistics-august-2021/dwp-benefits-statistics-august-2021

Believeitornot · 29/10/2022 08:05

Thatcher broke the unions = less worker protections which includes pensions. It’s not a surprise that many pensioners don’t have a private pension.

There’s no need for companies to provide a decent pension when no one is there to fight for it.

TheNosehasit · 29/10/2022 08:09

Ok, so from 2019

Most people don’t receive full state pension, government figures reveal
Just 44 per cent of 1.1m people currently claiming get full state support in old age

So where is the 12 million pensioners figure coming from?

TheNosehasit · 29/10/2022 08:10

Believeitornot · 29/10/2022 08:01

Big numbers! It all adds up.

Get out your calculator and work out £114billion dividend by 12 million pensioners for example - this isn’t precise but it just to get the scale in your head.

114,000,000,000 divided by 12,000,000

www.independent.co.uk/money/spend-save/pension-state-dwp-income-retirement-money-women-a9203726.html

Nope.

40% of 1.1 million.

Not 100% of 12 million.

Perhaps you should look at your figures again.

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