AIBU to expect to keep my full holiday entitlement?

[namechange0998776554432]

I've just applied to change my hours at work so I finish at 3pm every day, meaning I now work 80% of my full time hours. I was previously entitled to 25 days holiday but they're saying that will reduce to 20
(I.e. 20% less). I understand the logic, but I'm still working every day and losing a whole week's holiday is going to be pretty significant for me. The reason I'm cutting my hours is because I have no childcare outside of school! My pay is already reducing by 20% so taking a weeks leave from me on top seems unfair.

Surely, since in each day I work 20% less hours, when I am on leave I am also taking 20% less leave. So, I should still get 25 days (but am taking 20% less hours each day). I already argued this to HR but they refused, and sent me a policy which very clearly states the calculation and says if you're part time on e.g. 80% hours, you get 80% leave even if you work 5 days a week. This seems wrong to me but they refuse to give in.

Has anyone else been in a similar situation and managed to argue successfully? Am I being unreasonable to expect a bit more from a company who claims to support women who need flexible working arrangements?

And me third.

I wonder how many people (women) are getting less annual leave than they are entitled to, because HR doesn't understand maths and people accept a reduction because it feels 'right' to have fewer days even when they work less than normal length days.

Usually if you are part time you get AL in hours not days. So yes your AL would reduce but you'd technically be taking less hours off and getting less pay.

You are right to some degree. I work 30hrs so I am 0.8 of a full time worker. Therefore my BH entitlement is 0.8 of a 7.24 day. I get paid 6hrs for a bank holiday.
If I take AL I take it in hours. So I I take a week I take off 30 hrs not 37 like a full time person would. It doesn't mean I get any less days as my leaves equates to 29 days AL at 6hrs per day

@Nopeforme I work in HR and agree a lot of HR people avoid any calculations.

However, I find a lot of employees are equally innumerate, can’t be bothered to do the calculations or don’t even know how to work it out. As this thread has shown.

Yes they can lose out on leave, but they can also be underpaid and not realise. I once contacted a senior manager to double check they were not getting an allowance they were entitled too as according to my data it wasn’t being paid. Guess what - not got a clue that they were missing £4k a year. I picked it up as part of a baseline data check.

I'm aware of why. I was simply replying to the Original post which asked for anything similar and threw my hat into the ring

@Princessglittery £4k a year! I wouldn't mind a call from HR telling me I'd forgotten to claim but tis unlikely.

I get what you're saying about people being innumerate. But given HR should want to abide by laws, I'd have thought some high up HR person would set a non-discriminatory policy and make available a simple excel or tool to work it out. Or even direct people to use the government calculator. Not leave it to individuals in HR to work it out and rely on the employee to argue if it's wrong.

The issue is that your employer and you are basing this on different parameters.

I had a similar issue when I reduced my hours when I went back after maternity. We had the whole 'x' days discussion and the HR person just didn't understand what I was saying.

The 20 days is a correct IF they are full days. And as you only work 80 % then they need to either pay your AL as a full 8 hr day (ie you get more salary on your days off) OR when you book AL, each day off is calculated PER YOUR ACTUAL HOURS - ie at 80% which effectively means you do get your 25 days eg you book a week off - based on 40 hr week, this is would show as 30 hrs in the system so only 3.75 days.

Don't back down - ask for your AL to be calculated in hrs. I don't think they're trying to give you less than you're entitled to - I just don't think either side is explaining properly and/or misunderstanding the other side.

It doesnt work that way....your total number of hours decide your total number of hours holiday.....reduce your hours, your holiday hours reduce.

Let's make it a trio.

It is agreed by everyone (including OP) that as she is now working 80% of her previous hours, she is entitled to 80% of her previous annual leave.

Whether it is worked out in days, hours or milliseconds the amount of time off is the same and it still equates to 80%!

Her days currently are the equivalent of 80% of a full day, therefore when she has a "day off" she is in effect having 80% of a day off.

May that be the end of it?

p.s. AAAAGGGHHHHHH!

I reduced my hours by working 30 hours over 4 days and know that your employer is correct in reducing your annual leave entitlement to 80%. If you had dropped a day like I did you wouldn't notice what you feel is unfair. If this is necessary because of childcare then you must recall your reasons and be happy with that. When you are able, I'd recommend dropping a day - it's great! Meantime, always keep a record of your annual leave in hours. Kind regards, W

OP isn't querying the annual leave entitlement being reduced to 80%.
However, due to her employer's HR department being mathematically illiterate, they are proposing to reduce it more than 80%.

@Nopeforme I agree. In one workplace I wrote the policy, developed a template that took employees and HR step by step through the calculation and upskilled the service desk. I also acted as a reference point for complex cases. Everyone knew if they weren’t sure to ask me.

The problem these days is it’s seen as transactional HR and so senior people and those seeking progression just want to be strategic I.e. do the easy blue sky thinking and leave the creative technical element to anyone else but them. In most cases it’s because they can’t be bothered to learn it. God I’m so cynical these days 😂😂

Ahhh blue sky thinking, leaves the rest of us doing the actual work!

@namechange0998776554432 please please please come back and tell us HR has seem the error of their ways. We need some good news after getting wound up by the number of people on this thread still saying you should expect a reduction and not realising it is MORE than 20%.

It should be hours & if you have a days leave you just credit your time sheet with the amount of hours your normal day would be.

If a person works 80% of their contract hours, that person is only entitled to 80% of the annual leave. Worked out in hours it is correct - 25 days minus 20% is 20 days!

FFS

Same amount of days but less hours.

It's not 20 of OPs days though her days are 80% of a full day. It is 25 of her days.

AL is calculated pro rate hours so if you do 20% less hours then yes you will lose 20% of your holidays

I can't believe how many people,are commenting that are incorrect.

Yes but OP works less hours per day so she will get the same amount of days off but if she works 20% less then her holiday pay per day will be 20% less.

I hope so.

Please read the HR advice on here and challenge. As a HR person if you are still working the same hours every day your holiday entitlement doesn’t change, you get paid for a day worked for the number of hours you do, when you take a days holiday then you are taking just one of your days.

if they want to play by their logic then that means that when you take a day you are only taking 80% of a holiday day, and you will then basically have a spare day for every 5 you use…..including bank holidays, they are talking nonsense. The only time holiday in your situation should be worked out in hours is if you are not working the same length of day every day. I use to do 2 long days and 2 short days that were longer than a half day so hours was the only fair way to do it.