Hard to see her in same way

[Perditanoy]

I have a friend I've known for about a decade. Met at uni. Lots in common.

After uni we never lived close by but caught up on text every few months and saw each other periodically. She had the same boyfriend for years but was always so adamant she'd never get married or have kids. Very career-oriented, did loads of travelling and had great hobbies.

I really came to admire her stance and honesty on the marriage and kids thing as she wasn't afraid to say it wasn't for her despite the usual societal pressures. It was refreshing. She was quite clear on all her reasons for her views and we had many conversations about it. It wasn't necessarily going to be the path I took but I loved having a proudly independent female friend who wasn't pining to get married and have babies and was going to do it her way. I really looked up to her.

Then a few years ago just before lockdown, her and her partner bought a house. For legal reasons they then decided to marry given their new situation with the property (they live abroad). It was a closed door wedding and she had no fuss or even family attend. Just one witness. Fair enough. Owning property sometimes means marriage is a better option for tax/ inheritance reasons.

I saw her around this time and she was still 100% no on kids however. Her partner didn't agree though and they'd had a lot of arguments about it.

Then last year she got pregnant and has since had a kid. I found out via social media and she never let me know directly. I called to congratulate her of course but she seemed quite sheepish about it, almost embarrassed. She mentioned relatives that had trouble getting pregnant and were desperate for kids yet she hadn't been and it all happened easily.

Since then we've had occasional contact but not as much and usually about things related to hobbies. I asked a couple of baby questions but she never answered. It's fair to say we've drifted, also due to post-lockdown and living so far away. I'm OK with this as I know friendships can change but I've been reflecting on how she did a 180 on things she seemed so against all the time I knew her. Maybe I never really knew her at all?

I know people change their minds, life moves on, situations crop up so there's no judgement of her about any of this.

But for so long I saw her as the cool independent one. I put her on a pedestal and I admired her resistance to doing what is expected of every woman in society. And she was so adamant for years that that life wasn't for her. So her change of heart did come as a real shock and I guess it was hard to see her in the same way. I honestly never thought she'd change her mind as she holds very strong opinions and convictions.

Aibu to have been so shocked that she changed her mind and did what everyone else does or should I never have believed her in the first place and put her on such a pedestal?

Even with close friends you never know what is going on privately. She might have changed her mind. She might have had an unplanned pregnancy but then decided to keep it, she might have had issues with fertility.

I used to say the same when I was younger because I couldn't have kids & feared that maybe no man would want me because of that. Immaturity & self preservation absolutely but it shut down conversations I didn't want to have at the time.

Her situation or change of heart or otherwise is none of your business. If she wanted you to know about it, she would have told you.

I find it hard to understand and a bit weird how invested you seem to be in the life of this woman. Don’t you have much going on in your own life OP?

I saw her around this time and she was still 100% no on kids however. Her partner didn't agree though and they'd had a lot of arguments about it.

It sounds like it became have kids or lose her longterm partner (or make them very unhappy). Clearly not losing them was more important than not having kids (and I imagine she started to feel.mord ambivalent about kids as well).

Anyway the bio clock might've hit her too.

I know women who had zero interest til late 30s and then went absolutely baby mad.

I agree it’s weird you idolising her for ‘knowing’ that she didn’t want marriage and kids. (I’ve put knowing in parentheses given that she later changed her mind). I have always known I wanted marriage and kids and am now happily married with three children - would you idolise me too? Or is there something less impressive about knowing what you want from life if it happens to be what most other people also want from life?

She might have had an unplanned pregnancy but then decided to keep it

This too

You never, ever know how someone else really feels about having or not having children. I’ve known many women and couples who have publicly insisted, very convincingly, that they couldn’t imagine anything worse, they’ve no interest, and then have been approved for adoption or finally conceived after multiple rounds of IVF. It’s such a difficult and painful subject, people lie about it because it’s just easier. And they have an absolute right to do that- it’s private, and if you don’t want to be lied to, you shouldn’t ask difficult personal questions.

There are women who genuinely don’t want children (I’m one) but you can’t assume that what someone says about this is what she really feels. You can safely assume that no non-mother over 35 wants to be asked about it. It’s either incredibly tedious and irritating, or extremely painful. Just talk about one of the millions of interesting subjects of conversation that exist instead. If you have enough in common to be friends, it shouldn’t be hard.

If I was being superjudgy, I’d say both of you were quite immature.

Sometimes we change our minds as we hit our 30’s. Being adamant about all kinds of things in your late teens and twenties is quite normal, admiring someone else completely possibly isn’t very healthy and changing your mind about children/life direction/career is also quite normal.

I’d be reflecting on why I was so invested in her life.

when I was younger I was set on not having kids. Then I changed my mind. I had one ‘friend’ who reminds me of you who kept making shitty PA comments about how “I just thought you didn’t want kids” - while I held my baby in my arms. I ditched her and I think you need to ditch your friend, friendships shouldn’t be so judgmental.

I find your post really odd.. you are way way too over invested in bet choices and life; and I expect she thinks you’re really really judgemental so she has distanced herself.

You are/have been really really judgemental for ‘putting her on a pedestal’ for her life choices. It’s a really odd behaviour to me that you judged her based on the fact she made or vocalised those particular opinions on marriage and kids - I would go as far as to say actually your obsessiveness with those two things she ‘said’ says more about your feelings about them actually than hers.. you don’t mention her career choice or whether she is kind etc but seem to have valued her mainly on those two particular subjects- why?! Are you anxious about marriage kids, having them or not having them? I can’t think why else you would be so so bothered by someone else’s choices in those areas of life.

No one knows what life really holds for them. Someone who has nothing might win the lottery tomorrow, or someone who is an elite athlete might find their health fails them. You absolutely cannot hold someone responsible to the point of cutting them off because life turned out an unexpected way.. unless for example they commit murder or something very sinister! Why do you think you feel so strongly about this particular person. Could it be jealousy? Or a reflection of your own feelings I wonder Xx

YABU. Dont have heroes, they all have feet of clay. People are permitted to change their minds. Leave the poor woman alone, she may be feeling as bewildered as you are.

Many many people feel confident of things when they are young. As we grow and mature, we often change our minds on things. We can’t see the future or know what life will bring or how we will feel as we grow.

I would probably try and look inwards on this and dig into why you’re so affected by a friend living her life and making decisions which are right for her now. What is it about her changing her mind about this that bothers you so much…? When something someone else is doing (especially someone who isn’t a big part of our life and affecting us on a day to day level) makes us feel so upset etc, it’s usually a reflection of something in us that we’re not fully acknowledging, I find.

YABU and very naive to expect people to still hold the same views at 18-21 to ten years later. People change their mind all the time. It's part of life. It's not a betrayal, that's so dramatic and stark.

Well two things

First you can’t have babies or marriage without the I furnace of another human - he may well have captivated her and allowed her to change her mind! That’s love.

But also being strong enough to change you opinion in a huge U turn is something to admire! Not many people would be willing to do so.

People change. We all change. There's no particular virtue in clinging to a no-longer-held belief or conviction simply for the sake of consistency.

It wasn't so much the child free stance, it was more that she seemed to know exactly what she wanted and didn't want and wasn't afraid to say it

and now she’s changed what she’s wanted but still knows it but sadly it looks like she is afraid to say it when she has a friend who will judge her. You are incredibly unfair

She has gone through more years of life and changed her mind about what she wants. Everyone has the right to do so. It has no impact on your life whatever and she has done nothing that could be construed as wrong

Your attitude is judgemental, whatever you say

"But for so long I saw her as the cool independent one. I put her on a pedestal and I admired her resistance to doing what is expected of every woman in society. And she was so adamant for years that that life wasn't for her. So her change of heart did come as a real shock and I guess it was hard to see her in the same way. I honestly never thought she'd change her mind as she holds very strong opinions and convictions."

You are judging her.

Let her get on with her own life as she sees fit and get on with yours. You have little contact anyway so it shouldn't be difficult.

I think the reason she is sheepish and doesn't talk about her dc is because she is fully aware that you admired her and now she's changed her mind and gone down a different path she feels as if she's maybe let you down. Which is absolutely bonkers by the way. But judging by your attitude it seems like she wasn't far wrong?

I would be sad that a good friend didn't feel able to admit they'd changed their mind. It's perfectly normal and fine.

I think you were overly captivated and put her on a pedestal which she didn't deserve (some people are just very empathic and sound surer about things than they really are). She also probably felt your admiration, and possibly hammed it up for you even more.
But also, don't underestimate the role of her DH. I have a friend who is very similar to this (actually wondered for a second if it was the same person!). And strangely enough she had children, in her case through IVF. And the reason was whilst she has a good job, her husband has a GREAT job (partner in a fairly big law firm), and was therefore definitely a keeper ... and he absolutely wanted the children.
So they have 2 kids, and she is a perfectly acceptable mother, but it's very clear that he is the one who is all over the children side of things, took paternity leave, I think he even works 4 days a week when she works 5, he is the one choosing the schools etc etc. And his salary will fund all of their travel etc when the children are a bit older :)
So that might be why your friend caved, she didn't want to lose her DH.

Your attitude is so judgemental.

It's got nothing to do with you. She's allowed to change her mind. So what if she was adamant about something in her 20s? That doesn't mean she can't change her mind.

Maybe she knows your feelings which is why she's backed away from you.

Exactly.

OP is talking like changing your mind is the crime of the century.

You are extremely naive and immature for what 32 ish?
Of course people change.
Life is full of change.
Your expectations are just ridiculous.

Wasn’t on my radar either. Then I met the right person, got married and had children. So glad I did. Would hate to think my friends judged me over it, they wouldn’t be my friend if they did!!

What are your ages now, OP?
Life isn’t linear, is an apt cliché.
Nothing is fixed/set/done and done.
Your friend is still that same cool person. Lucky her. She found someone who wants to be part of a family together. Obviously her partner loves her for similar reasons you do.
Be a friend. Go see her baby, for god’s sake and embrace who she is now.
Throw any and all pedestals in the fire.
Above all, accept yourself, OP. You’ll never fully accept others until you accept yourself and your own life choices.

You sound like a weird ‘friend’ to be honest. A bit obsessed. And it comes across like a lot of this may be in your head - you’ve got this bizarre view of someone, putting them on a pedestal, it may well just be your imagined view of them rather than reality. Makes me think of the tv show You.

I saw her (a couple of years ago) and she was still 100% No on kids. It was causing lots of arguments with her husband

The news that she now has a baby must be a bit of a shock if she was adamantly anti children so recently.

Do you suspect that she backed down to give her husband the child he wanted? You feel that she didn’t stand by her own convictions or something?

It is rather annoying when a young twenty something thinks they have life sussed out and is very vocal about it. I’d call it the arrogance of youth.
I think the scales have fallen from your eyes op; she isn’t particularly special or unique at all! As pointed out, it never bodes well to put someone on a pedestal.