To think that christmas is farce ?

[portocristo]

Christmas seems to be a alcohol and food fest plus lots and lots of gifts and elf on the shelf etc. Just wondering if kids nowadays know or care that it's a religious occasion . I'm pretty sure that if you asked most kids about Christmas they would say its all about presents and chocolate. Am I being unreasonable in thinking this ?

@Myunclesmustache

Yeah, you've managed to quote me whilst misquoting me there.

I didnt say the religions were secular. I said associated traditions have become absorbed into the secular celebrations.

And have nothing to do with the religious festival that people of the actual religion still celebrate.

You know Christianity has its origins in Judaism, yes? Most of the very first Christians were Jewish, and early Christians used lots of Jewish texts and sources.

It has nothing to do with Hanukkah.

The more likely or at least scholarly theory today is that it was based on the Jewish tradition that linked the date of a person's death with the date of his conception. Which gives a date for the Annunciation of March 25. Nine months later is December 25th.

@UWhatNow

Yes. The timing of Christmas is because of the Christian festival.

But carol singing and performing nativity are not part of the Christian religion. Even visiting church doesnt necessarily mean religious observance

Easter moves because of Jewish traditions. The date of the resurrection should remain fixed, that doesn't make sense either.

Tbh I cant remember what your original point was

🤷‍♀️

Yes, I do, thank you. It was a question, not a personal insult.

As it was an answer, not a personal insult.

You might be surprised how many people have odd ideas about the origins of Christianity.

@Topgub Yeah, you've managed to quote me whilst misquoting me there.

Huh ?? What does that mean ??

The date of the resurrection should remain fixed, that doesn't make sense either.

Well, good luck with trying to alter that one.

Christmas is fixed to a solar calendar, near the winter solstice, and Easter is based on the lunar cycles of the Jewish calendar.

There were enough problems trying to get a consensus of opinion when we moved from the Julian Calendar to the Gregorian one.

There was a huge trend at the end of the 19th century to try and link different Christian festivals and show them to be "really" pagan festivals. They came out with all kinds of garbage that doesn't stand up to scrutiny and which no historian would accept today.

You do realise there is no evidence that Jesus existed zero. So calling the linking of pagan festivals garbage as there is no evidence is hilarious as the story of Christ stands upto zero scrutiny.

@Myunclesmustache

It means what it says.

You quoted my post and then said it said something completely different to what you posted.

Yes, I'm aware of why the dates are the way they are. Again, I didnt say they should be changed. Just that it doesn't make sense that the date of the resurrection 'moves'

@Topgub Again, I didnt say they should be changed.

Yes you did - here "The date of the resurrection should remain fixed,"

So that involves changing it doesn't it?? Changing it to the same date each year.

I'm really not sure what you are trying to say🤔

Guys stop it.
Think, what would baby jesus do.
Go shop for presents😂

@ReneBumsWombats Did you know that Jesus was actually a Jew?

@Myunclesmustache

Imo.

I'm not mounting a campaign to keep Easter the same date every year.

It makes no difference to me personally.

But logically the date shouldn't change.

My God, really???

Shocked. Noooooo wayyyyyy

No, but I'm a little surprised by how many people automatically assume that, given all the breakaways and different denominations of Christianity there are, plus the different calendars, plus the well-known winter pagan festivals around the solstice, plus the fact that Christ was supposed to bring a new testament that did away with many original Jewish laws, we should all assume in the first instance that early Judaism was the main reason for Christians choosing that date. As we know, Hanukkah isn't a solstice festival and the Jewish calendar is lunar so it wouldn't recognise a solar solstice anyway.

Like I said, it was just a question.

OY VEY

I like the food, alcohol and presents but attend church too. They aren't mutually exclusive

😁 can't believe he was

That's interesting, in my experience people are much more likely to assume some kind of influence from paganasim. You see that all the time with discussions about Easter for example, and they just don't hold up.

The date for Christmas was set (or actually dates as some of the eastern churches were slightly different), if my memory serves me correctly, in the third century, so before even the very early Christian schisms, and when the patristic writers were still very much influenced by Jewish thought.

Again, Hanukkah isn't related to Christmas historically. It's not a matter of one deriving from another. The early Christians had a real interest in figuring out the most likely date for Jesus' birth, they weren't just looking to "take over" some other festival.

I'm not sure where you get that idea.

If you were to apply to a position in a university department teaching ancient history, and you said that, they would think you were a crackpot, and you wouldn't get the job. Jesus as a historical figure is completely uncontroversial among scholars.

Why is it more logical to have a date that doesn't change?

*I'm not sure where you get that idea.

If you were to apply to a position in a university department teaching ancient history, and you said that, they would think you were a crackpot, and you wouldn't get the job. Jesus as a historical figure is completely uncontroversial among scholars.*

There is actually no evidence of Jesus, only evidence what people state is accounts written some years after his supposed life. He inst in any Roman records or anything.

in my experience people are much more likely to assume some kind of influence from paganasim

For the date of Christmas, yes. I'm aware that Holy Communion originates from a Jewish bread and wine ritual, but a) to my knowledge that is observed only by Catholics and b) Jesus is supposed to have created that one himself, so it makes sense that it would continue.

According to one Jewish tradition, the Messiah would be born on the Hebrew date of 9 Av, which falls in the summer in the lunar calendar. I don't know how widely accepted within Judaism this is (happy to hear from anyone who knows), but if it is quite well established, then one would think it made more sense to celebrate Christ's birth then, since he was believed to be the Messiah.

Summer in the solar/Gregorian calendar, I meant. Bah.

I, half jokingly, refer to it as a non denominational midwinter festival. It's a festival where people meet up and share food and drink. Alcohol has long been a central feature of the festival.