To think that christmas is farce ?

[portocristo]

Christmas seems to be a alcohol and food fest plus lots and lots of gifts and elf on the shelf etc. Just wondering if kids nowadays know or care that it's a religious occasion . I'm pretty sure that if you asked most kids about Christmas they would say its all about presents and chocolate. Am I being unreasonable in thinking this ?

The Easter are interesting. I was surprised by the significance of the days leading up to it afteroving to UK from my infidel country!😁
While we celebrate the Monday and all the days are marked in calendar, it is in no way in religious way.
Interesting differences if I am honest. Learned a lot

Modern Christmas trees maybe, but they were symbolic evergreens which have been brought into houses at the time of the winter solstice from before Christianity

Yeah like holy and what's the name of the parasitic one we all like

Well, I'm not a Muslim so I don't celebrate Eid.

I suppose the pagans on here will claim Eid as a pagan festival too? I hope you celebrate it 😅

But most people who point out that Christmas is a combination of a pagan festival and a Christian one which took it over aren't saying that because they are pagans. They are saying it because it's a fact. People who grew up as non-Muslims in a country which is not predominantly Muslim are unlikely to celebrate Eid... because they are not culturally Muslim, whether they are pagans or not!

Yeah like holy and what's the name of the parasitic one we all like

Mistletoe. Also Ivy. Very traditional Druid plants 😁

Thank you! I drew total blank there in all languages 😂

I am Catholic (in theory, because I am atheist, got married in civic centre etc.). I love non-religious Christmas my husband and I have while we spend time together. I must admit, I used to hate Christmas as a child, because of my super religious judgmental mum snapping at everyone for not going to church (because they don't live properly), forcing everyone to pray and so on. I know she just wanted to raise her children the way she was raised, but in effect both me and my sister hate spending Christmas in parents' house. My dad is nice chap, if it wasn't for mum, he would not go to church on Sunday etc., it's just my religious mum who makes everyone's life miserable.

Posted to soon, sorry.

So, to sum up, farce can be sooo much nicer in many cases 😅

@Myunclesmustache

I didnt say the victorians did pre date Christianity

Just that these things became popular during the victorian times. The traditions themselves are not based on the Christian festival.

Bit odd to focus on that though and ignore the obvious point because you can't counter it.

Well, no.

Because again, people aren't actually celebrating those pagan festivals any more than they are celebrating the Christian festivals.

They are celebrating the multi cultural traditions that have now become secular.

Its just easier/habit to call it Christmas

The multicultural secular mid winter festival that coincides with the dates of the Christmas and much older pagan festivals is a bit of a mouthful.

@Topgub I would disagree that Yule and other ancient festivals are 'secular' as ancient gods/goddesses are involved.

According to what I read Yule is one of the oldest winter solstice festivals, with origins among the ancient Norse thousands of years ago. Its roots are complicated and difficult to trace, although there are several theories about how and why the festival was celebrated. It is generally agreed that Yule celebrations began as a Norse festival called Jol, although assessments of the purpose and traditions vary. Like most winter solstice festivals, themes of light, fire, and feasting are common threads. Some historians think that sacrifices were an important part of the observance, either to the gods (such as Odin) and other supernatural beings (such as elves) or to the dead or both.

It seems that the Winter Solstice is the same as Yule.
Winter solstice has also been known to celebrate Earth's regeneration or rebirth, and the Scandinavian Goddess, Beiwe, is associated with health and fertility.

The Roman Saturnalia festival was dedicated to the god Saturn

The Diwali festival takes place over five days. The first day, Dhanteras, is for celebrating Lakshmi, the Hindu goddess of wealth, prosperity, youth and beauty.

So I can't see that any of these festivals are 'secular'???

I would disagree that Yule and other ancient festivals are 'secular' as ancient gods/goddesses are involved.

We have absolutely no idea the degree to which gods/goddesses were involved for the wide range of individuals celebrating these feasts

Im not sure of the strength of the point you're making anyway as you can absolutely celebrate the following

Winter solstice has also been known to celebrate Earth's regeneration or rebirth

Without any recourse to gods and no doubt many over the millennia have done so.

Humans, particularly in dark, cold countries, found a way of lifting their spirits with light, greenery and feasting in the depths winter and they did this over millennia.

Whether they attached a god to or not is fairly immaterial really

I'm an atheist and I love Christmas!
We treat it as a winter festival and I love the lights, trees, dinner with friends and family and gift giving.
It cheers up the bleak mid-winter.

@Topgub Whether they attached a god to or not is fairly immaterial really

Well no, actually it isn't.

You claimed people were celebrating secular festivals. I've listed those that had gods/goddesses involved which are patently not 'secular'.

I'm sorry you don't get that.

Well no, actually it isn't.

Because you say so? 🤔 no dice, sorry

You claimed people were celebrating secular festivals.

Maybe check the poster who replied to you. Much as I enjoy Topgrub's work on this site, I am not she.

I've listed those that had gods/goddesses involved which are patently not 'secular'.

We're talking about pre history here, where understanding of people actual behaviour, beliefs and practices is very limited. We also don't know what festivities pre-dated these that you're so keen to assign to gods.

I'm terribly sorry you don't get that 😂

I've just realise that my non believer arse gets presents from baby jesus every year and no one there ever questioned why bunch of infodels gets presents from baby jesus still rather than making up some fairy like creature😂

@TheKeatingFive Well no, actually it isn't.

Because you say so? 🤔 no dice, sorry.

Nothing to do with what I think - I'm just following the discussion.

We're talking about pre history here, where understanding of people actual behaviour, beliefs and practices is very limited. We also don't know what festivities pre-dated these that you're so keen to assign to gods.

My mistake - I thought we were discussing the 'secular, multicultural celebrations' of today.

Because again, people aren't actually celebrating those pagan festivals any more than they are celebrating the Christian festivals.
They are celebrating the multi cultural traditions that have now become secular.

As mentioned here ^ by Topgrub. at 12.42

And 'pagan' doesn't mean 'secular'.

Christmas really has almost nothing to do with Saturnalia, other than a few borrowed aesthetic elements in some places.

There was a huge trend at the end of the 19th century to try and link different Christian festivals and show them to be "really" pagan festivals. They came out with all kinds of garbage that doesn't stand up to scrutiny and which no historian would accept today.

If anything the Dec 25 date of Christmas is more likely derived from Jewish influence on the tradition.

What? No one else celebrates that anyway? I think that you’ll find that kids across the land are at least taught about it and perform nativities etc. Lots of folks visit church when they wouldn’t the rest of the year and our local multicultural housing estate give generously and love it when we go Carol singing there…

Nobody is being possessive - it’s a double bank holiday and two weeks off for many… and that’s because it’s Christmas. Christ Mass. A religious festival.

Irrespective of how we got here - it’s because of the church calendar that Tesco is closed! Same at Easter - the resurrection of Jesus. Another stolen festival from the Pagans but it’s the Christian element is why there is a bank holiday and why it changes annually.

I don’t get what you don’t get about that.

They are celebrating the multi cultural traditions that have now become secular.

And 'pagan' doesn't mean 'secular'

She didn't say it did mean that though, did she? She referenced traditions that had become secular

@BiddyPop Just as a heads-up, Jehovah's witnesses don't celebrate Christmas at all. It has no religious significance to us and we view it as any other ordinary day. 🙂

What influence did Judaism have? Hanukkah is the winter Jewish festival and it doesn't usually fall on 25 December. And how would Judaism influence the celebration of the birth of Jesus?

I think both celebrate important date on 25th but Jewish calendar is lunar so it moves unlike Gregorian.
So both have 25th but not on each others' 25th

I agree with you OP which is why I have refused to celebrate xmas for the past 10 years.
My relatives are outraged but honestly I couldn't care less.

Yabvu. People have come together to celebrate at this time of year long before Christianity. It’s dark, cold and depressing so I’d hardly call making merry, feasting and creating warmth and light in the darkness with family and friends a farce!

Whats the point in life without spending it making merry and feasting with family when you get the chance?! We are meant to be social creatures after all!