To expect a non-shouting house?

[LorraineJelly]

DS is 3. Being assessed for ASD next week. He gets rages and does things like pull all the books off the shelves. It seems to be getting better though. Less frequent. He always apologises and i always get him to clears up things afterwards.

He always shares with his younger sister etc. He's affectionate. He hates raging. He gets so upset afterwards and just clings to me shaking.

Anyway, DH has started shouting at DS. When DS is having a meltdown, I try to calm it down but I do kind of accept things are gonna get messy and I know we will tidy it up again afterwards.

DH shouts at DS when he's in meltdown. DH slams doors. Shouts fucking hell, other swear words. He shouted this morning as DS "I don't like you young boy". He also grabbed him a couple of times. I stepped in this morning.

DH says I don't "do fucking anything". And says when a boy is pulling books off the shelves or pushing things over...it's totally reasonable to bloody shout at him.

Any views? I think parents should avoid shouting at kids this young if at all possible. I'm trying to teach DS not to shout and scream.

I'm in a similar position, and looking to leave, it doesnt get any better.

What a disgusting way to talk to any child.

I think it’s fine to shout STOP or NO if they are doing something destructive but he does sound extreme and nasty in his reactions.

You both need to work together to agree strategies that do work or can help as letting your little one be destructive regardless of the reasons is only going to get worse as he gets bigger. There are lots of ideas and strategies online so find a few to try out- redirecting or distracting or moving to a safe space etc. But then work WITH your husband and agree who does what and when etc. It sounds like everyone is a little bit out of their depth.

Honestly? You need to ditch the husband. I say this not out of hysteria but experience. My ex is this type of personality (a bully) and our son has ASD and ADHD. His issues improved greatly when I left his dad. There were other reasons I left him but the positives for my son were immeasurable.

I believe both of my children would not be in a good place at all if they still lived full time with their father.

Btw it sounds like you’re doing a great job with your son considering the struggles you and he face. Don’t let anyone undermine that.

The NHS says to wait for it to stop and to not give in. Which I do. Then when he's calmed down enough to let me near him, I give him a cuddle and sit him on my lap and explain that when hes feeling angry he needs to use his words and that throwing things is not allowed and hurts people. We then tidy up the mess together and I keep repeating how much I love him being calm and helpful. As I say, i think I'm making progress like this. He's developmentally behind his peers in terms of language etc.

I don't feel overwhelmed. I feel determined to help my kid learn how to stay calm while staying calm myself.

Shouting stop or distracting him has never worked. He can't hear me or even see me it feels like when he's raging.

When DH shouts at him, I just hear DS saying to DH "see mummy please, mummy mummy"

YANBU at all. I'm not against shouting per se, and if my NT 4yo were pulling books off a shelf in a rage you can bet I'd be shouting NO, STOP at her. But a kid with ASD in a meltdown? That's just not going to solve anything, and the grabbing and saying "I don't like you" is appalling.

Your DH needs to understand that you aren't doing nothing at all.

@DontSpeakLatinInFrontOfTheBooks I worry you might be right. I've got this feeling in my gut that DH shouting has gone beyond what is acceptable. DH says afterwards he's just frustrated and upset that our boy is still having such big meltdowns and he "just wants it to stop". But my gut is telling me I'm failing DS to stay. But then another voice is saying I'm being OTT and actually shouting at a kid who is pushing over things is probably pretty normal.

That's so interesting that your DS improved when he didn't live with his dad. Is dad still in your DC lives? Was it very very hard to leave?

My DD13 has adhd and ASD. Very clever but still implodes and has meltdowns. You learn to help them deal with it. They are just explosive at times and your DH needs to buckle up and start dealing with it or you leave.

I'm a lone parent, honestly it's easier dealing with life on my own than with a shitty shouty partner.

I wouldn't shout, but I might raise my voice, and there is a difference. A raised, stern voice is not the name as shouting. Raised just means above your normal talking volume, and there is a sliding scale between "above normal conversational volume" and "shouting" in my opinion. I also fine some people are very overly sensitive to changes in tone and volume and will feel they are being shouted at when the aren't.

So, is he genuinely shouting or is he just raising his voice whereas you would remain at your usual tone and volume?

He shouldn't be "grabbing" him, although I don't see anything wrong with attempting to move a child physically away from something. If mine were pulling all the books off the bookcase I would probably pick them up and move them rather than let them carry on. What does he do when he grabs them?

I also think "I don't like you, young boy" is horrendous and that would be my biggest concern. I would say "I don't like your behaviour" or "You are acting X way" rather than commenting on it being something intrinsic in their personality.

Perhaps your husband needs some education around ASD? It does seem like he thinks your child is just naughty, which is a common conception around ASD type behaviour.

If you think he has the capacity to change his behaviour, I would recommend he does some kind of parenting course either online or in person around ASD in children and how to deal with that.

If you don't think he ever can or will change, I think you need to leave for the sake of your son

We don’t shout in my house. It’s one of my major boundaries - I think parents shouting at children is aggressive and unnecessary and all it shows is a parent who isn’t in control of themselves much less the children.

Unfortunately I do think it’s hard to change people. A man who thinks it’s ok to shout at a ND and developmentally behind preschooler and say he doesn’t like him is a nasty bully. He might change his behaviours if it benefits him but he’s unlikely to change his underlying nasty attitude.

I've got this feeling in my gut that DH shouting has gone beyond

Sorry just seen this! Ignore my first para

Does your DH understand ASD and the difference between a meltdown and misbehaviour? Is he struggling with the potential diagnosis?

I wouldn't shout, but I might raise my voice, and there is a difference. A raised, stern voice is not the name as shouting. Raised just means above your normal talking volume, and there is a sliding scale between "above normal conversational volume" and "shouting" in my opinion. I also fine some people are very overly sensitive to changes in tone and volume and will feel they are being shouted at when the aren't.

I mean this could easily be the opposite - some people who lose their temper and feel the need to ‘raise their voice’ may feel they aren’t shouting when they are. And either way there’s usually little reason to ‘raise your voice’ above a normal talking volume. It’s a bit gaslighty to say you’re not shouting but some people are ‘overly sensitive to changes in volume’ so are wrong if they think you’re shouting at them. If you find it regularly I’d suggest you actually are either shouting or taking an unpleasant tone with people rather than they’re all too sensitive so can’t tell the difference between shouting and your ‘raised stern voice.’

It sounds like your dh is aggressive and he’s making the situation worse

And although I agree it’s useless to shout at a ND child, even if he was NT this would be poor parenting. He’s three years old. Shouting and saying you don’t like him is hardly going to improve his behavior.

Your DH "just wants it to stop" so ... is imagining that you don't mind the tantrums and are quiet happy for them to go on?

Does he not see that you also "just want it to stop" but that you think and manage those feelings rather than lashing out?

It sounds like your DH has the same kind of difficulty that your son has in terms of emotional regulation.

It sounds like your husband is also frustrated. We talk about mum rage, but dad rage is a thing too. I'm sure he doesn't want to shout, no one wants to shout but some people get to a point where it's all too much. I'd speak to him. If a mother did this, we would say she needs a break, she needs some time, she needs her needs met, it's the same for dads. Work together on this and be open. You are a team.

Yeah, although even this might not be particularly constructive dependent on the child.

IMHO parents have a "right" to lose it and go a small bit too far every so often... sometimes I look at threads and it seems like MNers expect parental perfection.... but persistantly shouting and being nasty to a young kid is clearly horrid and highly unlikely to have a beneficial affect on the child, or even address the behaviour short term.

Your DH has crossed a line here, in what he says as well as how he says it. I can be shouty - I really, really hate it about myself and feel extremelty guilty afterwards. But whenever I shout it's DS doing something and me saying things like: stop, don't do that, you are being really naughty right now, we don't hit. Telling him that he is not liked and shouting during a metldown is completely different.

I don’t think shouting constantly does any good but sometimes a firm, raised voice is needed.

Sometimes you can’t help shouting and it’s a spur of the moment thing, especially if they are doing something that could hurt themselves.

I always try and avoid shouting as I save that for when I need them to stop doing something immediately, as they are in danger.
If they’re not used to you shouting often and then you do, it usually stops them in their tracks.

The bigger issue here though is that you and DH have completely different parenting approaches.

How is DS ever going to know right from wrong if you let him do something and then he gets shouted at for doing the exact same thing.

You need to find a way to compromise.

For example if DS needs to throw things around then create an area like his bedroom with things that aren’t breakable.
Then you can let him do what he needs to do to calm down and then speak to him about it afterwards.

It means you can both be firm and tell him to stop breaking things he shouldn’t and tell him to go to his room to do it.

@Bumpsadaisie - oh my gosh -you'#ve hit the nail on the head - that is the MOST annoying argument I have with DH

He takes my calmness as a sign I don't give a shit. DS is having a meltdown and pulling all his clothes out the drawer and I'm sitting next to DS saying "Calm down, use your words, don't do that, it's OK" but essentially not doing anything else - if I forced him to stop physically I would have to pin him down (not prepared to do unless he was going to hurt himself) or I could shout and scream like DH (not prepared to do and doesn't work). My calmness is NOT because I don't care - it's because I'm in control and ultimately trying to role model calmness to very emotionally out of control little boy.

Sorry I know you know this. But it's literally the NUMBER ONE frustration. DH just cannot get into his head that me being quiet and calm doesn't mean I like what is happening. He keeps saying to me "Do you not fucking care that your house is a mess??" "Do you not care that DS is a behaving like a monster??" etc etc.

GAHHHHHHHHHHH

@LorraineJelly honestly it seems like their is only one monster in your house and that’s your DH. Your DS is so young and doesn’t purposely behave this way. He can’t fully articulate his frustrations. And he has a giant adult looming over him shouting, using aggressive words and body language. I wouldn’t allow my DP to treat me like that. Let alone my child.

does he act like that in the workplace if he gets frustrated? I bet not. Because he knows it’s not acceptable behaviour.

your DH needs to go and speak to someone about controlling his anger and learning to moderate his behaviour.

Everyone who's saying to leave the husband, how is her DS going to cope when his dad gets 50/50 custody and mum isn't there to step in? That's a strong possibility. LTB is so easy to fling about on an Internet forum but life isn't that simple. OP can't guarantee she won't be forced to leave her son with his dad half the time. At least now she can mostly ensure that she's the one dealing with these meltdowns. She could end up with no control over this and her son in a far worse position than he is now.

Could you get some kind of therapist or even your public health nurse to talk to you both do dh knows you are using a very definite strategy here. Or maybe watch some videos online when you are both in a calm place. I'm sure your dh panics thinking we are rearing a child who is out of control but some knowledge here would really help if he is prepared to learn. That is the crucial point..can he be open to learning.
Surely he sees that you keeping calm does diffuse the situation.

If you could be one step ahead of ds and avert the blowout by anticipating it it's very helpful but it takes a while to recognise the triggers. Maybe having a place where ds can go to calm down like a pop up tent with a nice cuddly blanket might be useful but it's going to be a gradual trial and error to see what works.
Holding a child very tight in a warm fashion might be something dh could try as long as he is not angry but aware of soothing the little guy.