To expect a non-shouting house?

[LorraineJelly]

DS is 3. Being assessed for ASD next week. He gets rages and does things like pull all the books off the shelves. It seems to be getting better though. Less frequent. He always apologises and i always get him to clears up things afterwards.

He always shares with his younger sister etc. He's affectionate. He hates raging. He gets so upset afterwards and just clings to me shaking.

Anyway, DH has started shouting at DS. When DS is having a meltdown, I try to calm it down but I do kind of accept things are gonna get messy and I know we will tidy it up again afterwards.

DH shouts at DS when he's in meltdown. DH slams doors. Shouts fucking hell, other swear words. He shouted this morning as DS "I don't like you young boy". He also grabbed him a couple of times. I stepped in this morning.

DH says I don't "do fucking anything". And says when a boy is pulling books off the shelves or pushing things over...it's totally reasonable to bloody shout at him.

Any views? I think parents should avoid shouting at kids this young if at all possible. I'm trying to teach DS not to shout and scream.

@ncncncnc123 My worries exactly. To be honest, I want to do it alone. I have no desire to be with a man at all to be honest. They all end up angry. Or at least the ones I end up with do! I'd happily see the back of him. But I just cannot get my head round the idea of leaving my DC with him for long periods of time without me being there.

My DH just took DS toy shopping (I think he feels guilty about all the shouting over the last couple of days). And DS asked for a barbie doll and DH refused to buy him one. DH is now saying he feels bad about it but couldn't 'bring himself to buy the doll'

This is so opposite to the man I married.

I don'#t know what the fuck is happenign to him lately.

So your husband is responding to a probably ND 3 year old’s tantrum with an equally bad tantrum of his own, instead of acting like a parent:
Slamming doors
Shouting “fucking hell”
Shouting AT the child that he doesn’t like him
Grabbing the child.
As well as being rather pathetic, all this is frightening behaviour from a man and would be terrifying for a toddler. It looks and sounds violent.
He should change his behaviour before your child gets older and potentially more challenging. Professional help with anger management would be a start, but he’d need to recognise that he has a problem.

Exactly what I was thinking. The DH is old enough to know better unlike a small child.

Not to oversimplify but LTB.
If you have concerns that he will be horrible and shouty when he has custody, go for supervised visits. He’s horrible and shouty NOW.

Leave him ASAP and protect your son. Your son deserves to grow up in a home with people who love and accept him for who he is not with an abusive father who shouts at him and calls him a monster.

And please go out and buy him the Barbie doll he wanted!

By the way (outside of your ur DH disgusting behaviour) have you considered moving your DS to a safe space during his meltdowns? I wouldn’t shout at him but I also wouldn’t follow him around as he trashes the place gently saying ‘no, don’t do that, calm down’ because that’s pointless. He is still doing it and it could be making him feel more harassed. We used to move my son to under the stairs. Which in retrospect sounds a bit mean but it wasn’t like a Harry Potter cupboard! It was just a space in the hallway with cushions, beanbag, his calm basket with sensory toys and things etc. That became his space to chill out. Now he has a corner of his bedroom which is his relaxing place. Which I think is better than walking behind him as he throws all the books and saying don’t do that don’t do that.

I agree.

Your son can’t hear you properly in that moment so trying to ask him to calm down is pointless.

I would not shout or physically restrain him unless he is hurting himself or someone else.
And I would say this to DH too. Shouting or restraining when it isn’t needs is not going to have any effect or have the opposite effect.

I would have his safe space and explain to him (when he’s calm) that he needs to go here to calm down.
The second you see he’s starting to deregulate then tell him as simply as you can to go to his safe space.
Don’t try and have a conversation with him until afterwards.

The poor boy must be so confused and you need to try and encourage DH to go to parenting courses with you.

Having a child with these difficulties adds extra strain on the relationship and it’s even more important that you and DH are a team right now.

I wouldn't buy my ds a barbie doll either BUT I would never shout at ds knowing there are other underlying issue. Poor boy is only 3 and going through something. Your dh should know much better at his age.

What exactly does your Dh achieve?

Does your DH shouting make him stop having a meltdown and say sorry dad and put the books back on the shelf and the clothes in the drawer etc

If not then your Dh is shouting because he is no more capable of controlling his own emotions than your Ds is.

Of he can’t stop what makes him think a 3 year old can.

It’s no more guesswork than tbt statement that he’ll want 50/50. Very few men want 50/50 - it’s nowhere near as common as folks on here suggest.

Its baffling that people think being stuck with a man who is uncaring and bullying all the time is somehow a better solution.

I agree a safe space is a great idea. My dd (12) uses her bedroom, it is absolutely not a punishment and we talk about going to calm down. I then keep popping in until she is ready for me to be there (staying can make a meltdown worse). I also think you want ASD specific parenting courses, not generic parenting courses, which have different strategies. It may be that would help your dh be on the same page with you.

I agree with the pp who talks about children with ASD not picking up subtleties in tone of voice. Dd2 gets very upset with impatience, if you try to hurry her and thinks your cross with her and panics. Usually, if an NT child emptied a bookcase, you would use a stern voice to warn them to stop and that you were serious. My ASD child would either find it funny or have a meltdown and/or attack you in distress.

*you're cross

I'd leave someone for that and would push for supervised contact. Swearing and shouting is a form of aggression and children should not be handled aggressively.

@JustLyra He's not uncaring. He can be very caring towards our DC. But he seems v emotionally immature, and because he's upset about DS's behaviour, seems to think this level of anger is justifiable/understandable and when I try to explain that the upset is understandable but we have to be the adults and remain calm...he just gets defensive and says "Fine, then, you fucking sort DS out" or "I'll just not get involved then shall I?". Just basically being totally defensive and difficult.

I know I'm making him sound awful but he does absolutely care about them. But I know it's not good at the moment.

I know it seems baffling to stay. This morning for example DH was shouting and shouting, DS was crying. I went in, picked DS up, took him upstairs, calmed it all down, we went downstairs and cleaned up the mess, DH said sorry for shouting, and then took them out toy shopping. What would happen if I wasn't there????

Your DH is an abusive twat with poor rational abilities. I'd be leaving him as he is unlikely to improve his behaviour given what you have said.

There's no point in shouting. We have a 3yo with ASD. Shouting simply adds to his over - stimulation and disregulation, either extending or escalating the meltdown. We don't shout at him but have noticed this if we are in a noisy area (eg people shouting at the park when he starts having a meltdown). Your DH needs to do a lot of reading and research around what autism is and means and how to find effective strategies to manage the more challenging behaviours. Of course, a firm "no" when ds is simply being mischievous is fine, but shouting on the cusp of or during a meltdown is rather like throwing oil onto a fire you're supposed to be putting out.

For him to care about them isn’t enough. He isn’t controlling his anger and aggression and maybe you’re not seeing how bad it is because you’ve got a bit used to it. He isn’t “upset”, he’s furiously angry. He really does sound frightening and this sounds like an unpleasant household with too much tension because of him. Unless he gets some help with this, he won’t change.

Well being totally blunt, like most fathers who behave like that toward their children he’d likely see him EOW for a while and then it would get “too difficult” so it would be a few hours here and there…

What’s going to happen when your son is older and in your DH’s eyes more out of order for “behaving like a monster”?

Also keep a close eye on the buying gifts after being a dick thing - that doesn’t erase memories or fix things in your DS’s mind like your DH assumes it does.

You’re having to parent your DH as well as your son.

Its never easy to leave, but it won’t be easy to stay either. He needs to educate himself fast so that he can parent all the time, rather than just in the nice or fun times.

I suggest you get Jeffrey Bernstein's book '10 days to a Less Defiant Child' (it's very useful with ASD), read the chapter on shouting and get DH to pick a strategy to try.

Shouting at a disregulated child is really scary for them - they already feel out of control and now the adult is too.

If DH doesn't think he needs a strategy (guilty shopping isn't a strategy), maybe try to get a Relate appointment.

Other posters have suggested your husband may also be neurodiverse - definitely worth thinking about how he was brought up.

I was too shouty for a while and when I thought about it, that was what my parents modelled for me.

Sorry OP but do you not attempt to physically stop him at all when he is pulling books from shelves? He could pull something heavy on top of himself.
It sounds like you would benefit from going on a training course in safe restraint - you need to learn how to safely restrain him as otherwise he could hurt himself surely? There's a difference between pinning a child down and safely restraining them and removing them to a place of safety. It's books one day but what if another day he managed to reach something unsafe /glass?
I don't agree with your DH's approach but it does sound like you sit there passively and I would be frustrated to watch that too, people seem to think as soon as a child is even being considered for ASD they must allowed to do absolutely anything and nobody must attempt to stop them. I don't agree - as a PP said if he needs to throw stuff around create a safe enclosed space for that with items that won't hurt him. A heavy hardback book with pointy corners dropping on his head could hurt him.

And as another PP has said - there is shouting and there is raising your voice. Raising your voice and using a firm tone is very important when dealing with young children who often don't respond when you use a speaking voice - teachers regularly need to raise their voice and use a non-gentle tone, that's not shouting.

Op I found these pictures helpful when discussing with my DH how to manage tantrums.
There are some useful insta accounts that offer helpful advice if he's willing to listen and discuss with you

Your husband is a bully.

You'll all be calmer when you leave him.

It's very possible your son is acting out rage he has witnessed, or micro aggressions ofnyour husband's that he has been exposed to, that maybe you have lived with for a while too but you have gradually accepted.

How has it happened that are you unsure whether your husband's physically and emotionally abusive response to his child's behaviour might be normal or acceptable?

I sense a boiling frog here.

From my own experience of parenting a child with ASD (might not generalise): 1. She can't tell the difference between a 'firm tone' and shouting; 2. If she's in a state, she can't take anything in at all, but shouting and anger can up the ante and make her more physical; 3. Passively making the environment safer is a good idea but you need to do it proactively, in advance (e.g. I always put my glasses away in a case after a pair was destroyed in a rage); 4. Sometimes you need to make sure they're safe and remove yourself. DH should step away if he can't control himself.

This is very tough on relationships but adults try to address their response and improve. Or at least step away.

@LorraineJelly

What's going on with your H is:

DS isn't a little go along, get along baby any more. That is to say, he's no longer a little 2 dimensional figure onto which H can project his ideas about himself. He is clearly very much his own person, not an extension of H's personality.

He won't buy a Barbie for him because 'gay'which doesn't accord with H's idea about himself, and again, DS' preference is too much of a reminder that he is a separate person.

H is taking DS' behaviour as a challenge to him. He is taking it personally.

This is how narcissists deal with the realization that their children are real, three dimensional people. There is no cure for narcissism.