To think secondary school rules are harsh and missing the point

[craxyrulebraker]

DS has just started secondary I just think it is all too much and the focus is all wrong.

You have to ask to take your blazer or jumper off
warning about the 'wrong' type of PE shorts, etc
Not allowed to drink water in lessons
Cautions for forgotten kit
Detentions for homework not complete - even when its not clear who/how to hand it in

Meanwhile very little nurture or pastrol care; poor communication so children don't know what is always expected of them, but scared they will get a detention; hardly any SEN support; very little staff presence at break/lunch times or in corridors; problems with bullying. Schools can't do these basics but tell the kids off for wearing the 'wrong' grey trousers!!

Why no mention of whether children actually learn and thrive in that environment? Or does it only matter that they are scared into submission?

Funny how the usual advice on MN is to ‘sip water regularly’ and now we’re getting all the prefects out telling the OP that her child definitely doesn’t need to drink in class 🤔 Can you imagine being told in the workplace that you couldn’t sip water whenever you like?? The same posters would be advising the OP to ‘go to HR/get a new job/go on strike’ etc.

MN is weird.

I’m feeling quite stressed by the life of a Y7! Mine got detention for not completing homework online which we couldn’t log into! Then I was told I should have messaged via some system - which she’d not been given the details for because the lesson she would have been given them fell on the day of the Queen’s funeral! So over-officious there somewhat. Meanwhile they’ve hushed up about a child receiving life-changing injuries during a fight on their premises. And this is the school that so many people out of the area want to send their children to because it’s one of the better ones!!

Also re questioning rules and saying "why should I do this" "I don't want to"

We do that as adults. We absolutely should do that. We should question rules rather than blindly accepting them. There are rules worth following, and there are rules that aren't. As we get older we learn what matters (most of us!) And we live by that.

There is literally no reason to force a child to wear a blazer at school. None. It's a stupid rule and we should be questioning it. In the same way some lockdown rules were ridiculous and should have been questioned.

I wouldn't want my child to let life happen to them and blindly accept everything as gospel. I wouldn't want them to think that's how the real world worked because they'd be in for a massive shock.

Don't worry!

You are right and I do eye roll at some of the secondary school emails and endless rules. I think it's fine to question and disagree with rules.

But then I always think unless you're actually running a school you don't know what it's like. It's hard enough managing 2 or 3 of your own children, imagine having to sort out literally thousands of teenagers every day. There just isn't the time and resources to do it perfectly.

I always tell my dc at high school that they are there to get their education not to worry about silly rules.

Children can sip water regularly. At the beginning and end of lessons.

I'd rather my own children were learning in lessons than faffing with water bottles and running to the toilet every two seconds.

There's many jobs where you can't just drink when you want and have to wait for a break.

Things like drinking water during a lesson, can you just marine 30 kids bottle flipping, squirting water, dropping their bottle and it rolling away, complaining that they've ran out of drink.

Everyone thinks that their child would never do that.

Oh yeah I imagine it is hard, but I imagine pulling up thousands of kids a day on the colour of their socks doesn't actually make it any easier. Literally couldn't be arsed. If it's not impacting their learning it doesn't matter. Going to the toilet in lessons, water bottles etc I can understand the reasoning and it probably does impact their learning but the length of their skirt does not.

DD has something wrong with her foot which triggers significant cramping. It’s to do with her having had significantly stunted growth as a young child and her bones and muscles not catching up at the same rate. Hospital said she needs to wear trainers. We bought her black ones etc and notified the year head. All they ever asked was how long she’d wear trainers for. They never once asked what was wrong with her foot (which should be far more relevant given their responsibility for her care and welfare).

Surely you included this information in your email to the head about why she needed to wear them in the first place?

Our education has been set up to mirror public schools, because the people who set the system at government level went to them and don't see why others should not suffer as they did.

It is all nonsense and designed to quash individuality. The need for strict rules arises from the size of schools - they are just too big. The staff are running scared of the chaos that bubbles beneath the surface and the OfSted inspector who needs to be appeased by an efficient gloss.

I sometimes wonder how we can inflict this on our children.

@MarshaMelrose not about rehydration, for many children having a distraction like sipping from a water bottle staves off anxiety, reduces feeling overwhelmed in ASN children and allows for a second to pause and recollect themselves. But of course schools are all about the square legs in square holes and god forbids anyone who doesn’t fit in that bracket.
schools are the most harsh and difficult surroundings for many children and in my opinion most teachers are blind to that or just don’t give a fuck.

Because without rules, it would become chaos very quickly. Some kids have little or no discipline at home, so this is the only way they'll learn what the real world is all about.

Is it really so hard?

@giggly interesting it's the strictest Michaela like school round here that has the most neurodiverse children clammering to get into it. We decided it would be too harsh for my very well behaved autistic and anxious son but there is no doubt that very many children with adhd and autism respond really well to the absolutely clear cut rules around behaviour and thrive on the lack of disruption, quiet corridors etc.

I believe we should create these discipline free schools for naughty and disruptive children and their parents and create schools where people value their education and don't want to be around those disruptive families. It's where the comprehensive system fails. We could call those schools with good behaviour and strong discipline Grammars. Of course a government should be looking to get maximum value for each pound spent so of course the Grammars should get more money as the children will make best use of it. And of course the best teachers will want to work in the best schools so those children will further benefit.

Poor discipline helps no one and is detrimental to the children's education.

There were lessons 2.5 hour long when I was at school in the 1980s, no reason that is not the case now.

Why no mention of whether children actually learn and thrive in that environment?

But they do. There have been hundreds of studies where schools with strict uniform and behaviour rules do well, better than average, even excel. Children (not mini adults), need structure, need to know what is expected of them, need a quiet, stress free environment in which to work, be able to hear lessons. Noisy, disruptive, behaviour is a barrier to learning. So..... no water bottles, maybe take your blazer off when you sit down. No one behind the lesson, because they "forgot" their homework. Being able to present yourself in the sports hall with your kit on, so you can get on with it straight away.

Contrary to some pp's there are "rules" in adult life too. Be presentable, treat others with respect. Come to work, on time, prepared for the day. Be able to work in teams. Be prepared to be appraised by your co-workers, your boss, and to be "sanctioned" for poor behaviour or poor work performance.

To be fair you can come out of school with good exam results despite having no respect for your teachers or having received little in the way of pastoral care.

We told them that we would provide details when we spoke with them to go through an amended care plan for her and asked for a suitable time. They replied with ‘how long will she be in trainers for?’

So they already knew her medical history from her care plan? I don't get why you wouldn't just share the information with them rather than them having to go digging for it. Surely that's in the best interests of your child?

Schools have enough to do without having to gradually tease medical Information out of parents.

Why not just email the answer?

Why no mention of whether quiet, well-behaved kids thrive in an environment where there is lots of disruption?

(The answer to that is no, by the way).

I’ve been watching “teaching in essex” the amount of time wasted on uniform was ridiculous. The headteacher seemed to want it to be his full time job to collect hoodies off everyone and it didn’t stop anyone doing it the next day.

I still don’t understand the rule about needing to ask to take the blazer off? This is just about basic physical comfort …

i find all these rules in English schools downright weird…