To think secondary school rules are harsh and missing the point

[craxyrulebraker]

DS has just started secondary I just think it is all too much and the focus is all wrong.

You have to ask to take your blazer or jumper off
warning about the 'wrong' type of PE shorts, etc
Not allowed to drink water in lessons
Cautions for forgotten kit
Detentions for homework not complete - even when its not clear who/how to hand it in

Meanwhile very little nurture or pastrol care; poor communication so children don't know what is always expected of them, but scared they will get a detention; hardly any SEN support; very little staff presence at break/lunch times or in corridors; problems with bullying. Schools can't do these basics but tell the kids off for wearing the 'wrong' grey trousers!!

Slightly off topic but Tom has the right idea. Politicians, public speakers and interviewees are taught to take a drink of water to give them thinking time before answering a question.

I agree some of the rules in my kids secondary are silly. But I guess trying to get over 1000 teenagers to behave is no easy task

YANBU - schools often care heavily for academics and behaviour. If the Principal and SLT don't want to acknowledge welfare or pastoral then it will be completely ignored.
I promise though that most of the support staff working in those teams are fighting hard to support your children, even if it's behind the scenes.
We recognise just how important emotional and welfare support is and the impact this has on learning, but we can't make the senior team feel the same way...

Because not everyone has a choice of school.

Because the schools keep changing the rules.

@OperaStation it was delivered to the school. The first I saw it was when she brought it home that night. And it was too small so no chance of growing into it.

I haven't read all the comments but wanted to say that I've been teaching long enough to have seen secondary uniforms go from polo shirts and sweatshirts to shirts and ties and now blazers. Rules have come in and out of fashion. What I have always explained to my students is that I may not agree with all of the rules individually (e.g I honestly can't see why they need to wear a blazer in the corridors) I always try to uphold the rules because whatever the rule is, it's about being able to put aside our personal wants temporarily. It's about building cooperation, if you don't have that then you won't be able to teach them anything. Ultimately, whatever job /career our students go into there will be some rules to follow like wearing a hair net for food prep, no jewellery for a surgeon, no swearing at customer's, looking smart in your work uniform and so on.

I think it's easy to get caught up in each individual rule but important to remember that our main goal in school is to keep the herd going in the right direction and help them manage the demand of exams and then life. For years my school had no sanction for homework. As a result a large majority of students didn't do it and as a result they also didn't do any revision for their gcse's. Now we have a sanction kids are more on board and results are improving. We have recently been asked to discourage students from using the toilet in lessons. I would never stop but always day 'do you think you can wait', and often they can. We were having huge issues with large groups of students meeting up and truanting and causing trouble during lesson time, not because they needed the toilet but because they wanted to avoid work. We have students who have a card who are always allowed to go. Each petty rule is probably a result of a specific issue within the school. And often students are consulted through student voice about changes. Our school had relaxed some elements of our uniform as a result of this.

There are things you have to accept about secondaries, they are typically big, impersonal and without a lot of supervision outside of lessons. It's not an environment that works well for everyone and while there may be a particular school that's better they're pretty much all like that.

I think if your child is struggling you're best off finding ways to support their mental health outside of school as teachers can't really do much pastoral care with so many teenagers to manage.

All of this.

The theory in a lot of schools is that if you "sweat the small stuff" then larger behaviour issues don't occur. I'm not fully convinced by this, but education has become quite polarised, and the opposite view - that all behaviour is communication and therefore no one should be sanctioned ever, in practice leads to schools where behaviour is very poor.

I teach science, so regardless of setting there is always a rule of no eating or drinking in the lab. I follow this too. It's not the case that all working adults can eat or drink whenever they like! People say this about toilet breaks, too - but I also can't go to the toilet during lesson time. Part of growing up is learning to organise your day!

In terms of Y7, I am generally quite lenient about homework if I can see they've tried. But without knowing the actual instructions the teacher gave, it's very hard to judge. If everyone else managed to hand their homework in correctly then presumably it wasn't that confusing.

I get the issues around SEN support - this is often down to lack of funding, and often also leads to stressed teachers who may cut the kids less slack.

A class of 30 mixed ability hormonal 14 year olds is very different from any sort of university class, as anyone bright enough to lecture at a university should be able to understand. (I’ve taught in secondary, FE and HE and am very aware of the differences between sectors.)
The noise and distraction of endless slurping, playing with bottles, crumpling them and spilling their contents is a very real problem in lessons. No one needs to swig water all day long. No one needs to snack all day long either (unless for medical reasons).
I personally couldn’t be bothered about uniform one way or the other, but agree that endless nitpicking about uniform isn’t conducive to effective learning or good relationships.

It's irrelevant what you think about the rules OP. Your child has to follow them or face the consequences. Change schools or home educate if you don't like it. None of them sound unreasonable to me. Y7 is old enough to be organised. Have you contacted the school about the confusion about who/when to hand in homework? Not drinking during lessons is fine, they won't become dehydrated not having a drink for a few hours.

It was only during a heatwave we were told that we didn't have to ask permission to take our jumpers off.

We weren't allowed water in class.

YANBU, honestly dreading the day my kids start secondary school. They say school is to prepare you for the future and working life, but some of the rules you get in schools are things you never experience in adulthood or a workplace. Imagine being an adult and an employer telling you off for taking your blazer off or not allowing you to drink water, you’d report them. Why aren’t young teenagers treated with the same decency as adults.

After reading this thread, I'm glad I teach primary school children. Who's be a secondary school teacher when so many parents seem determined to blame the teachers for everything.

In my infants class the children are reminded and encouraged to drink at the beginning or end of a lesson only and that's the rule I've always used.

I've not got time to explain tasks to children who've spent ten minutes in the toilet after downing a whole bottle, or spilt the whole bottle over the maths books or spent ten minutes at the sink refilling after stopping me mid flow to open their bottle.

At the beginning or end of a lesson is fine but I'm there to teach and undisrupted learning leads to better understanding.

Obviously medical needs are different but I've never had a problem with this rule and my job is to teach.

People wondering why kids who have to be in school aren’t treated like adults in the workplace or adults at university

I’m sorry, but you have no idea.

Many kids today don’t think that rules apply to them and that “I don’t want to” or “why should I?” is a good reason not to comply.

My older cousins were at secondary school in the 1980s when teachers were literally allowed to hit kids with canes for misbehaving or minor transgressions.

I don’t think we should go back to that, but we have gone too far the other way.

I'm not fully convinced by this, but education has become quite polarised, and the opposite view - that all behaviour is communication and therefore no one should be sanctioned ever, in practice leads to schools where behaviour is very poor.

I agree, postapocalypticcowgirl, some of this is a backlash to the dreadful Paul Dix years where schools were overrun with ‘restorative conversations’ that achieved fuck-all, increased teacher workload massively and basically ruined behaviour for everyone. I don’t know anyone who could point to a school where that model was a roaring success. In contrast people can point to Michaela where the ultimate application of rigid routines and sweating the small stuff has led to astonishing results.

We’re now seeing a backlash against this with the ridiculous and yet increasing in popularity ‘no exclusions’ movement that wants no child to be expelled from school even if they have raped another pupil.

Teachers basically just want to be able to get on and teach without kids constantly pissing around.

No water during class?! Some of our classes were 2.5 hours long when I was at high school after lunch! No water rule sounds excessive! What's the reasoning behind it? They might spill it?

We had to ask the teacher to take our blazer off - it's a psychology thing about conforming and having the teacher in complete control

Why shouldn't the teacher be in complete control?

Children are there to learn, not watch other mess about.

@fromcitytocountry I'm sure this is true at my DS school. It is great you try so hard to provide the support needed. I'm sure it makes a huge difference to those children you are able to work with.💐

And just to stress I'm not criticising the teachers in this at all just the rules/approach itself.

There are no lessons that are 2.5 hours long. Stop making stuff up to prove a point.

Lessons as a teacher since the introduction of water bottles, are a battle against the distraction of them, with constant requests of ”can I go fill my water bottle miss?’“
unless you have experienced 30 children intermittently banging Bottles, spilling and slurping water in a classroom environment, then you have no idea, and should support the school.

and ask yourself, how often dies your child drink Outside mealtimes on a non school day? Not every 40 mins that’s for sure!

@MrsPuddle

I think you've quoted the wrong person. I agree with you.

tried to quote yours and hers, @bigfamilygrowingupfast , apologies!

I honestly don’t know where everyone on MN sends their kids. My twins finished school two years ago. All they were expected to wear was black trousers, a white polo neck and a blue jumper. The polo neck and jumper could be branded or unbranded. They had school shoes but would sometimes rock up in trainers and nothing was ever said. This school was rated ‘Good’ (or whatever the second highest one is) by OFSTED. They clearly had more important things on their mind aka teaching.