To think secondary school rules are harsh and missing the point

[craxyrulebraker]

DS has just started secondary I just think it is all too much and the focus is all wrong.

You have to ask to take your blazer or jumper off
warning about the 'wrong' type of PE shorts, etc
Not allowed to drink water in lessons
Cautions for forgotten kit
Detentions for homework not complete - even when its not clear who/how to hand it in

Meanwhile very little nurture or pastrol care; poor communication so children don't know what is always expected of them, but scared they will get a detention; hardly any SEN support; very little staff presence at break/lunch times or in corridors; problems with bullying. Schools can't do these basics but tell the kids off for wearing the 'wrong' grey trousers!!

I'm dreading all the petty uniform rules when my DC starts secondary next year . We're currently living overseas and he doesn't wear uniform to school. Funnily enough it doesn't have any impact on his ability to learn or achieve.

I struggle with the very struct uniform rules because there doesn't seem to be any sensible justification for them. I mean why are teachers wasting their time giving a kid detention for wearing the wrong colour socks or having the wrong type of pe shorts? Utter waste of everyone's time. It's rules for the sake of rules. No wonder so many kids don't enjoy school or want to be there if they're constantly worrying about which rule they've broken. There are far more important things to focus on surely.

All I can add is: last year the school I teach at was lax about rules. Untucked shirts, sloppy uniform, lateness to lessons not pursued, etc. Behaviour was APPALLING. Nice kids walking around looking scared and miserable, and I don't blame them.
New head this year, stricter on many things, a lot of which might seem inconsequential, and behaviour is so so SO much better. Most kids arrive on time, far fewer instances of open defiance (as in: I'm not going to do that work, you can't make me), much less bullying, about 75% fewer fights.
I have no idea why being made to tuck in shirts, have a planner on the desk and start each lesson in silence for 5 mins has made such a difference to (apparently) unrelated areas of behaviour, but it has. The students are finding work easier, achieving higher and seem to be happier.
I also do blanket permission to remove blazers once in my room, btw, I'm not a monster. But I now love teaching again; last year I was starting to think about leaving.

"Why does she need to drink water ..." 😅

Yanbu. My DDis in Year 8 and the petty rules gave her no end of anxiety for most of year 7. Yesterday she told me that kids get sent to the behaviour support unit for the day if they talk during lining up time which is a ridiculous overreaction. A few years ago the school had a reputation for bad behaviour which it has now turned around and I must admit there seems to be little to no disruptive behaviour but it seems too harsh for your ordinary well-behaved child.

Have you taught in the US?! I can assure you uniform rules and other senseless rules do not really exist in most schools here. Education is far more relaxed and informal in comparison to the UK. Most parents here would be horrified at the level of micro managing of children that British schools seem to enjoy.

@Swimminginthelake I think most parents in the UK would be pretty horrified by the behaviour in a lot of UK schools. Pushing, shoving, fighting, swearing at each other and teachers, walking out of lessons at will, vandalism (I'm talking radiators ripped off the wall, not a bit of pen in the bogs), throwing food and water...
I'm sure most people here will think 'my child would never.' I assure you: they do. Feel free to come and see it in action, we are short staffed and could use the help.

I haven't read all the posts so this may have already been discussed.

I work in a large secondary school (academy) and I definitely recognise some of the issues you have mentioned, op; the lack of staff to supervise and monitor corridor/break time behaviour and more importantly not enough SEN support for those who really need it. But have you ever asked yourself why that is? Schools are running on an absolute shoestring atm and everything and everyone is stretched to the absolute limit. It's not that schools don't care, they are just terrifyingly underfunded.

I do agree that emphasis on things like the wrong colour socks is irritating.

Oh don't worry l have no problem being capable after many years teaching with great success. And surely you realise a university lecture is a completely different place than a class of 30 12 year old students..

Water bottles are the bane of my life!!
The scrunching noise, the constant refilling, the drop of a metal one on the floor, the spills. So disruptive.
Not saying that they shouldn't have them- just saying that lots of kids can't just take a sip now and then- there's always a drama over them!

Interesting that there is a whole other (very sad) thread tonight about the lack of discipline and rules that some kids have, and the massive problems this creates.

And then this one which is complaining when schools are trying to rectify exactly that!

I like the 'consequences' system. C1,C2,C3,C4,C5

C1 - you write the child's name on the board
C2 - you tick the name

At this point if there is no problem for the rest of the lesson they go to the next class with no consequences.

C3 - detention that day (if C3 before lunch, after lunch then it is the following day), detention is spent copying a text book and lasts a half hour. There is a rota for teachers to supervise detention.

C3 for not doing homework - subject teacher tells you when to turn up to complete the home work

C4 - Isolation for the day

C5 - suspended

C4 and C5 can only be issued by senior staff.

So kids know what to expect. Teachers know and use the same system.

This school also had a daily equipment check, all children had to have a pen a pencil a ruler and a reading book.

It's a tough place for SEN DC the support isn't always available.

Is there a smaller school locally?

I personally love the new educate together schools popping up, they can wear their own clothing and more relaxed atmosphere overall.

Unfortunately there isn’t enough of them.

It’s a tough one and I can see both sides.
MyDCs have finished school now. They loved primary but not secondary. Their secondary went through a lot of changes when they were there and it was unsettling. However, the pastoral support had really improved in the last couple of years and DS benefitted from that hugely, it just wasn’t there when he was younger (useless school counsellor according to DD!). This was along with stricter uniform rules as well - the theory being that looking smarter encourages better behaviour - which seemed to work although in sixth form this wasn’t an issue.
what I do hate us smart dress for sixth form. Unless you work in the city, barely anyone wears a suit for work anymore, and the majority of kids will go to uni looking scruffy for 3 years!!

The world has gone soft too much entitlement from kids and their parents nower days. These rules sound just like I had at school we just obeyed them and the parents supported the school. I really wouldn't want to be a teacher today. No discipline and no support from parents.

Agree ballet flats are poor footwear choice , not good for healthy posture esp when walking to school.
fashion round here is opposite - doc martins shoes and big clompy shoes for school.
Australia NSW girls’ school uniform is similarly weird. Everyone to buy same lace up closed in shoe . Why not sandals for summer term and other really hot days?. Also why not cotton shorts/ lightweight trousers for girls all year instead of polyester tunics , shirts and skirts. Not all but many NSW schools. Unfit for purpose and ever rising climate and just Throwback to earlier British school influence .
modern kids deserve better in both countries

Yep totally ridiculous. My dd got a detention for having black socks instead of white socks for pe. In her first week!! They also made them write their names in the very expensive pe kit without trying it on so dd didn't fit and we couldn't return it!!
I will need to find a different school for my Sen son because they don't make reasonable adjustments for Sen kids either so no way would he cope.

You choose the school, you read the rules, you adhere to the rules.

Seriously what is so hard about this?

And just spend five minutes with a class full of kids and water bottles and you’ll see why it’s not a good idea 🙄!

I get quite sad reading this. I'm fully supportive of the teachers in my 2 DS's respective schools.

Yr 7 was very pretty difficult for both but I was there to help them and guide them through. It’s a high jump from the cosy year 6, to suddenly having to take responsibility for themselves in yr7.

Water bottles - keep them in the bag unless needed. My oldest had a full one lobbed at his head and hit the mark. The boy was put into secluded learning for 3 days.

both schools were very sensible and boys only went in with their school PE kits on during the heatwave.

What's the problem with merely tucking a shirt in? Or wearing black socks? Come on, you’re parents!
my oldest is yr10 now and is pushing boundaries (probably from yr9), but this is an environment that he has to learn, show respect to teachers and rules.
Also teachers are dealing with their student’s puberty !

But some lessons are 2 hours long. That’s a very long time without a drink, especially on a warm day.

I hate that the bad behaviour of a few (and inability of the teacher to control it) means that all kids suffer. It’s just not fair and sends the wrong message to the well behaved kids.

Why didn’t they try it on at home before taking it to school?

If you're not allowed to take a blazer off without permission, it's one less thing to lose.

I don't have a problem with most of OP's list. Obviously no one wants bullying. Our school has good pastoral care. You don't want pettiness, silly detentions. They should know how to hand in homework.

But why are they drinking in class. This current obsession with drinking water all the time seems odd to me. People don't get dehydrated in one class. They can have a drink as they go to their next lesson.

Plus rules are a good thing. Children need to learn to comply. We all have to comply, in many areas of life. It's a life skill. When they get to having a job as an adult they will need to turn up on time for work. And obey general rules because that is what is expected and without such rules there is chaos.

When I was at school, no one ever took water. Neither did my DC.
If there were no water fountains at school (which had largely disappeared by the time my DC went to school), then they had to wait till lunch time. The only exception, i remember, was for one school friend who had some kind of medical condition (and doctor authority). This was extremely unusual.
The problem with sanctions over PE kit, is that if forgotten, you may find they take someone else's. Yes, your DC PE kit goes missing, he or she gets the detention, when all the time someone else 'borrowed' it. If lucky, you may find it on the floor in the toilets one day, when the guilty person decides to return it.
My DC also had this 'not allowed to remove blazers in hot weather' without permission. Obviously the state school my DC attended were trying to replicate some kind of office attire, when in any normal office, people remove their jackets all the time.
Re homework; personally, I think a bit of latitude should be shown for the first year children (year 7), but remember those who go on to university will have deadlines for assignments, often without reminders, and expected to keep to it. So it may be useful for them to get used to this kind of deadline. But I would expect the school to get stricter more in the 6th year (years 12,13)

YANBU. It must take so much mental bandwidth for children, especially anxious children, to comply with these rules that would be better spent on learning.

I don't remember it being nearly as bad when I was at school. If shirts were untucked and you passed a teacher, they would bark 'tuck in your shirt!' at you but that was that. And no one was interested in whether you had a drink, went to the loo or took off your jumper or blazer during lessons. Also, despite there being much less recognition of SEN, the relationship between pupils and teachers was more affectionate in many ways and teachers did tend to treat children as individuals to a certain degree. I remember one boy in my class who was very bright but completely in his own world and a total scruff. He'd shed blazer and jumper on the way to class, his shirt would be hanging out and his tie loose around his neck. And that was the way he functioned best...I suspect nowadays he'd be diagnosed with sensory issues of some sort. As it was, the teachers treated him with a kind of fond exasperation and he went on to do an engineering degree at a top university.

A few years ago the school had a reputation for bad behaviour which it has now turned around and I must admit there seems to be little to no disruptive behaviour but it seems too harsh for your ordinary well-behaved child.

This is interesting. Would you rather the ordinary well-behaved child in a school with a reputation for bad behaviour or one with little to no disruptive behaviour?

Do you not see the link between the new rules and the lack of disruption?