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Original poster

To think secondary school rules are harsh and missing the point

751 replies

craxyrulebraker · 19/10/2022 22:19

DS has just started secondary I just think it is all too much and the focus is all wrong.

You have to ask to take your blazer or jumper off
warning about the 'wrong' type of PE shorts, etc
Not allowed to drink water in lessons
Cautions for forgotten kit
Detentions for homework not complete - even when its not clear who/how to hand it in

Meanwhile very little nurture or pastrol care; poor communication so children don't know what is always expected of them, but scared they will get a detention; hardly any SEN support; very little staff presence at break/lunch times or in corridors; problems with bullying. Schools can't do these basics but tell the kids off for wearing the 'wrong' grey trousers!!

OP posts:
tunnocksreturns2019 · 19/10/2022 23:58

DS is going to be in trouble all winter because he cannot tolerate the school jumper. I’ll be getting lots of phone calls. Crazy.

Itsokay2020 · 19/10/2022 23:59

@Novum but it doesn’t stop at blazers, it’s skin tight trousers, skirts that are rolled too short, missing ties, hoodies worn to flex the rules, trainers instead of shoes. If one child gets away with it, others will follow suit. Before you know it, hours are spent dealing with uniform infringements, members of the public complaining about indecent uniforms and the ‘state of students’. Those hours could be far better spent on pastoral care; dealing with mental health and safeguarding concerns, for example. It’s a shame that some parents won’t support the uniform policy of their child’s school - if only they realised the consequences of their inaction!

surreygirl1987 · 19/10/2022 23:59

My DS lost his tie because a load of kids pushed past him in the corridor and it was knocked off at some point and got lost

Eh? His tie got knocked off? From being round his neck? Because of children pushing past him? Am I missing something?

I'm a teacher and actually I do let children drink water during lessons. I also drink water during lessons. But if a kid starts flipping bottles etc, I take it away. Rarely have any issues with that. Thirsty kids (or hungry kids) don't learn as well.

The homework thing though... if I had £1 for every time a child has claimed 'I didn't know how to hand in my homework' or 'I didn't know what to do' when I have made it as clear as humanly possible and repeated myself 3 times ... well, I wouldn't be feeling the cost of living crisis right now!

Novum · 20/10/2022 00:00

luxxlisbon · 19/10/2022 22:34

Some of these aren’t really unusually strict and some aren’t strict at all.
How on earth is it not clear who to hand homework into or how? A secondary school child should be old enough to clarify what there homework is, when it’s due and how it’s handed in. A detention for not doing homeowner because they ‘didn’t know who to hand it in to’ sounds like such a lazy excuse.

Some school uniform rooms are strict, at my school we had to have our blazer on at all times when not in school and that was the 90s. Ultimately they are the rules though, if you aren’t prepared to guide your child and stick to them then don’t send them to that school at the end of the day.

An 11 year old who has just gone into a school much bigger than anything they were used to before, with different teachers and different rooms for different subjects? Including 11 year olds who may be very shy or anxious, or who may have learning difficulties? Who should have the onus for ensuring the system is properly communicated, the teacher who is used to the system and who is responsible for helping to integrate all those 11 year olds, or the shy 11 year old? If the teacher has failed to communicate, why should the shy 11 year old be punished for it?

As for "Don't send them to that school" - as people point out every time this silly mantra comes out, in many, many areas the reality is that parents have no realistic choice: there is only one school their child can go to. Which do you think is a better answer to the question of ridiculous uniform rules, children being out of school or the school getting some sensible rules?

FurAndFeathers · 20/10/2022 00:01

MarshaMelrose · 19/10/2022 22:33

The problem is year 7s have gone from being big fish in little ponds and now they're little fish in big ponds. It's a shock to the system but it's all about teaching them organisation and self-reliance.

As a university lecturer I’d suggest that secondary schools might do better to focus on critical thinking and independence skills than a system of continuing punishment designed to eradicate any opportunity for independent thought and promote a desperate culture of ‘passing exams’ at the expense of actual life or academic skills.

Novum · 20/10/2022 00:02

MarshaMelrose · 19/10/2022 22:38

Adults don't have to abstain from water at work it's bonkers. And from memory it's not 40 minutes. It's two hours back to back, break, another hour or so, lunch then another few hours.
Why would you ban kids from having some water? It's bizarre

Classes last about 40 mins. Then they break to go to another class or for the teacher to come to them. They can drink then.
Kids aren't adults. They are often careless and spill things. Sometimes deliberately. Teachers can't put bans on individuals so it's a class ban. They're not going to be harmed by not drinking for a couple of hours. I don't know where this obsession with sipping water all day has come from.

You haven't seen a secondary school timetable lately, have you?

Catfordthefifth · 20/10/2022 00:02

Itsokay2020 · 19/10/2022 23:59

@Novum but it doesn’t stop at blazers, it’s skin tight trousers, skirts that are rolled too short, missing ties, hoodies worn to flex the rules, trainers instead of shoes. If one child gets away with it, others will follow suit. Before you know it, hours are spent dealing with uniform infringements, members of the public complaining about indecent uniforms and the ‘state of students’. Those hours could be far better spent on pastoral care; dealing with mental health and safeguarding concerns, for example. It’s a shame that some parents won’t support the uniform policy of their child’s school - if only they realised the consequences of their inaction!

Or, you could just, let it go. And not waste your time dealing with any of it. Do trainers impair learning ability? No. So who cares.

Spend those hours on pastoral care. Stop wasting your time policing uniform when it has no negative impact on learning.

Catfordthefifth · 20/10/2022 00:04

And frankly fuck the general public. Who gives a shit what they think! People with too much time on their hands are inconsequential! I'd be hard pressed to not laugh down the phone. They're children not part of the bloody royal marines (who incidentally are probably less strict than some of these academies!)

SpaghettiSquash · 20/10/2022 00:05

surreygirl1987 · 19/10/2022 23:59

My DS lost his tie because a load of kids pushed past him in the corridor and it was knocked off at some point and got lost

Eh? His tie got knocked off? From being round his neck? Because of children pushing past him? Am I missing something?

I'm a teacher and actually I do let children drink water during lessons. I also drink water during lessons. But if a kid starts flipping bottles etc, I take it away. Rarely have any issues with that. Thirsty kids (or hungry kids) don't learn as well.

The homework thing though... if I had £1 for every time a child has claimed 'I didn't know how to hand in my homework' or 'I didn't know what to do' when I have made it as clear as humanly possible and repeated myself 3 times ... well, I wouldn't be feeling the cost of living crisis right now!

It sounds like he has a clip on tie. They are too easy for people to pull off.

noblegiraffe · 20/10/2022 00:05

As a university lecturer I’d suggest that secondary schools might do better to focus on critical thinking and independence skills than a system of continuing punishment designed to eradicate any opportunity for independent thought and promote a desperate culture of ‘passing exams’ at the expense of actual life or academic skills.

Maybe universities could stop selecting kids based on their exam results instead of their life skills then?

Terhou · 20/10/2022 00:05

I think what is often missed in these discussions is that you're not just dealing with one kid taking their blazer off or forgetting their kit or homework or whatever. It's 1000 plus.

@ForfuckssakeEXHstopbeingatwat, could you clarify why it matters if every single member of your class takes their blazer off? Or indeed if 1000 children in the school have the sense to do that on a hot day?

Catfordthefifth · 20/10/2022 00:06

noblegiraffe · 20/10/2022 00:05

As a university lecturer I’d suggest that secondary schools might do better to focus on critical thinking and independence skills than a system of continuing punishment designed to eradicate any opportunity for independent thought and promote a desperate culture of ‘passing exams’ at the expense of actual life or academic skills.

Maybe universities could stop selecting kids based on their exam results instead of their life skills then?

I'm sure many of them would love to! You can have the best grades ever but be absolutely shite at your job if you lack in other departments.

A more rounded approach would be better. Exam results only prove how good your memory is.

SusanPerbCallMeSue · 20/10/2022 00:06

Gotta love the "you chose to send them there" mentality. There are 5 secondary schools in my town. If I wanted to send them to one without blazers and silly rules about when they can take them off, that would discount every single one.

Why, after years at primary, where they are allowed to take their jumper off when they decide, are they suddenly deemed incapable of deciding if they need to wear a blazer or not?

PurpleWisteria1 · 20/10/2022 00:08

bellac11 · 19/10/2022 22:30

What sort of area do you live in where you have a choice about what school your child goes to?

Show quote history

Really? Round here there are at least 3-5
schools that you would have an extremely good chance of getting in to. Same for most mums I know in other counties around mine??

noblegiraffe · 20/10/2022 00:08

I'm sure many of them would love to!

I've not seen any calls from universities for the abolition of A-levels or a different selection system.

We, in secondary, have been blighted by them calling for 'more rigorous' exams because they can't be arsed to do their own entrance exams so want GCSEs and A-levels that are ever more difficult to 'distinguish between top grades' so that they don't have to.

Itsokay2020 · 20/10/2022 00:09

@Catfordthefifth yes, those working in schools could let many things go; uniform, homework, behaviour would be a start, after all if the kids and the parents don’t care, why should the educators care? Rules, pah! Who needs those! 🙄

bitachey · 20/10/2022 00:09

No water seems OTT. We have a no juice rule. Yes to detentions for no hw. We have a one day allowance or if they flag a reason in advance. The pupil needs to ask how to hand it in if it’s not clear.

so I agree with some and not others!

Novum · 20/10/2022 00:10

SeeYouNextTLol · 19/10/2022 23:20

There is always a choice of school because if you don’t follow the rules you will get excluded and the local authority will get you a place in another school. Although you might find out what being in a shit school is really like! 🤣🤣🤣

Don't be silly. That isn't a choice, is it?

echt · 20/10/2022 00:13

Terhou · 20/10/2022 00:05

I think what is often missed in these discussions is that you're not just dealing with one kid taking their blazer off or forgetting their kit or homework or whatever. It's 1000 plus.

@ForfuckssakeEXHstopbeingatwat, could you clarify why it matters if every single member of your class takes their blazer off? Or indeed if 1000 children in the school have the sense to do that on a hot day?

The. Teacher. Doesn't. Make.The. Rules.

But they do have to enforce them They don't get to pick and choose.

Catfordthefifth · 20/10/2022 00:14

Itsokay2020 · 20/10/2022 00:09

@Catfordthefifth yes, those working in schools could let many things go; uniform, homework, behaviour would be a start, after all if the kids and the parents don’t care, why should the educators care? Rules, pah! Who needs those! 🙄

That's not what i said though is it?

I didn't say let all rules go. I said stop wasting time on the wrong colour socks and put that time into pastoral care.

Someone wearing the wrong colour socks is of no consequence to anyone at all, it doesn't matter. Not providing pastoral care because you'd rather measure the length of girls skirts does matter. It's detrimental. It's a choice and a school who prioritised arbitrary uniform rules is making the wrong one and doing their students a disservice.

Novum · 20/10/2022 00:14

craxyrulebraker · 19/10/2022 23:53

For those asking - yes it is an academy. And yes nearly all the uniform has a logo so v expense. They even have special pe socks £7 a pair!!

And I love the suggestion than anarchy will follow if people wear the wrong type of shorts! 🤣

That's interesting, as it's a direct breach of government guidance - www.gov.uk/government/publications/school-uniform/school-uniforms

Suggest to the governors that ignoring the guidance really isn't setting pupils a good example.

Catfordthefifth · 20/10/2022 00:15

noblegiraffe · 20/10/2022 00:08

I'm sure many of them would love to!

I've not seen any calls from universities for the abolition of A-levels or a different selection system.

We, in secondary, have been blighted by them calling for 'more rigorous' exams because they can't be arsed to do their own entrance exams so want GCSEs and A-levels that are ever more difficult to 'distinguish between top grades' so that they don't have to.

Well I agree, that is ridiculous. Nobody needs more bloody exams.

IHateWasps · 20/10/2022 00:16

We haven't had a thread salivating in great detail over blazers, children being forced to wear them and school uniform generally for about a month now. It's nice to see that some MN traditions continue.

TeaCosyApplePie · 20/10/2022 00:18

YADNBU We home ed in part because of the stupidity of the arbitrary rules (uniform rules are insane) and toxic culture in schools. Both DH and I were abused and bullied (separate schools) by teachers throughout our schooling. Both of us did well academically but school felt like a prison sentence. As for the discipline, I only have to look at how colleagues in various workplaces over the years have behaved to conclude that school doesn't install discipline in the workforce. We sacrifice a lot to home educate, but it's so worth it. Several teachers we know also fully agree with our choice which says it all.

Stopsnowing · 20/10/2022 00:19

Love the people on this thread thinking no uniform rules will lead to anarchy. Did they see parliament tonight?