To think secondary school rules are harsh and missing the point

[craxyrulebraker]

DS has just started secondary I just think it is all too much and the focus is all wrong.

You have to ask to take your blazer or jumper off
warning about the 'wrong' type of PE shorts, etc
Not allowed to drink water in lessons
Cautions for forgotten kit
Detentions for homework not complete - even when its not clear who/how to hand it in

Meanwhile very little nurture or pastrol care; poor communication so children don't know what is always expected of them, but scared they will get a detention; hardly any SEN support; very little staff presence at break/lunch times or in corridors; problems with bullying. Schools can't do these basics but tell the kids off for wearing the 'wrong' grey trousers!!

But @hollyivysaurus do the kids in the super strict school have any respect for their teachers? Realistically you don't know. I'd bet a lot dont. They'll behave because they don't want to sit in isolation but I'd be interested to know how they actually feel.

I behaved in school (although it was not as strict as they are not) but I absolutely fucking hated a number of those teachers and I was so glad when I left. Just because I behaved didn't mean I had an ounce of respect for them.

My DC are at different (single sex) state schools. DD’s school is much more nurturing, fewer rules. DS’s school full of rules about uniform, lateness etc. While it was a struggle at first, and there are still things I disagree with, he’s now in yr 9 and has matured quite remarkably and become a lot more resilient. DD started off very resilient and I would say now in yr 10 is less so. Very fond of telling us that things ‘don’t matter’ because she doesn’t get in trouble for it at school (late assignments etc). I feel like a middle ground would be good. Also important to remember there is one teacher for every 30 kids. And just one kid determined to take the piss can really disrupt a class. I am in favour of no water bottles in class as my kids have laptops on their desks!

Uniform rules are totally outdated, especially around footwear. DSDs school have got so many rules about what they’re allowed to wear on their feet, the girls are all wearing the plain £4 ballet flats from primark which are totally impractical for our climate - freezing wet feet cannot be conducive to learning what is the the problem at all with a pair of black boots or trainers? I can’t think of many professions where people can’t wear trainers now so if the argument is that it’s preparation for the world of work I also find that hard to understand.

You might think the rules are rubbish but they are the rules of the organisation. Therefore you follow them or face the consequences.

Wow. Critical thinking bypass. Brainwashed Tory voting mentality.

@Catfordthefifth I genuinely don't know why some schools insist they ask permission to remove items of clothing. I couldn't care less, but I have to follow the uniform policy.
If my room is hot I say at the start of lesson the class can remove blazers / jumpers at will. During COVID I also allowed my classes to add an extra layer.
For me, it's all about my students learning to 'read the room' and realise when and how it is appropriate to ask for an alteration to the rules.

Do you have any idea about the reality of school admissions in some areas? People only too frequently realistically have no choice.

The theory that it's a good idea to have stupid rules to give students something to push against just doesn't work. When I was at school, from day 1 we didn't have to ask permission to take off a jumper (fortunately no-one expected us to wear idiotic blazers indoors) and yet the school had perfectly good discipline.

As for all the ridiculous detentions for tiny infringements, as people say, it becomes counter-productive. If you only get a detention for a serious breach, it makes the detention a serious consequence. If everyone gets detentions for minor breaches, the detention totally loses its significance and simply becomes an inevitable part of the school week.

I’m a secondary school teacher and hate all these ridiculous rules.They’re an unwelcome import from the US and have nothing to do with learning. I teach in an independent school and our rules are far more relaxed.

@Catfordthefifth Possibly, possibly not. I get told to fuck off multiple times a week so I don’t think in schools with fewer rules that respect abounds though!! I don’t think there’s any perfect solution with the uniform (except changing it to something more comfortable and casual). And banning the water bottles obviously haha!!

I think that's fair enough. I understand you having to follow the school rules. I just can't fathom it!

Oh yes... Definitely, get those worker bees well trained early

I agree with you OP. My youngest can be quite anxious but is a really good kid and is a rule follower.

All these inspections on skirt length and shoes and the attitude that they can never make a mistake or forget anything ever without getting a detention puts her anxiety through the roof sometimes. She wears the correct uniform but the way they do the inspections like they’re army sergeants puts the kids on edge. My daughter is in year 9 and has a really lovely, kind, rule following friendship group. One of them left a book at home, first time ever last week and they were given a detention. One teacher gives detentions if you don’t meet what she’s thinks you were capable of getting in a test. The softer kids are scared of getting a detention and some of the kids are in tears before the tests because they’re so worried about getting detention. It’s brutal and way OTT and not the way to get the best out of kids.

You have to keep phoning and asking again and again for any support to be given. 3 years left and counting.

And just one kid determined to take the piss can really disrupt a class. I am in favour of no water bottles in class as my kids have laptops on their desks!

Just interested in how wearing the wrong colour trousers disrupts the class?

Or taking off a blazer?

Or any of the other examples OP gave that had nothing at all to do with being disruptive?

Or are you thinking that if the kids are so worried and focused on not getting punishments for their clothing, water, lack of homework etc they will not have time to be disruptive?

And yet so many schools don't obey the law of the land. Guidance has been out for some time about not imposing expensive uniform requirements on families, but academies are still ignoring it. And so many are absolutely rigid in their rules, allowing for no exceptions even for diagnosed disabilities, which is a direct breach of the Equality Act.

If a school can't obey the law, what moral authority can it claim in telling students that they must obey rules?

Oh no I'm not suggesting it does, perhaps a middle ground would be better. they maybe don't tell their teachers to fuck off but they're likely thinking it. I get that doesn't help you who has to hear it and it's totally not okay.

@craxyrulebraker
Is the school an academy or did it recently become one by chance? I remember when both secondary schools I attended 10 or so years ago went OTT with surface deep rules and changes once they became academies.

One teacher gives detentions if you don’t meet what she’s thinks you were capable of getting in a test.

Urgh. Translates to the workplace as a bully boss you wouldn’t want to stay working for. Just awful for the dc who arrive at secondary with a love of learning that was nurtured well through primary, the change in environment must be so shocking for some.

Those questioning the point of uniform, would it surprise you that secondary schools report a drop in attendance on non-uniform days? Peer pressure, fear of ‘being different’ and anxiety about not wearing the current trends are just some of the reasons why attendance drops. Do you also realise that schools are measured on pupil attendance by the LA, DfE and Ofsted? Do you understand what Ofsted are looking for when they inspect a school? When you read the inspection framework and handbook, you’ll understand why schools have standards and expectations.

In a place where rules don’t exist/apply… what do we have? The first word that springs to my mind is anarchy. Is anarchy conducive to a prime learning environment? No, of course not.

As for uniform, it’s a simple request. Why, therefore, is it so hard for a minority in every school to follow the uniform expectations? Do you want your child’s teachers to educate your child, or teach them how to dress? Surely the latter is down to the parent and the former is down to the teacher who, after all is qualified to teach!

In which case, it should be left to the parents and schools should accept that teachers' jobs are only to teach and they shouldn't waste time around dealing with requests to remove blazers etc.

Nobody has said abolish uniforms. Why can they not be more casual? Less strict. More like a primary school uniform?

There is literally no reason why not. It certainly would not cause anarchy.

The same goes for removing blazers and such. Have some respect for the rest of the class and ask at sensible times. I always say yes!

Surely therefore the answer is to announce at the beginning of the year that everyone can take blazers off or put them on whenever they want to, you are issuing blanket permission and no-one needs to ask you, ever.

And yet, all over the world, there are very successful education systems in which uniform is the exception rather than the rule. The reality is that pupils settle into their own semi-uniforms of jeans and comfortable jumpers. There is no anarchy, exam results are fine, there is, quite simply, no problem. Can you not see that absolutely nothing can be extrapolated from what happens on very occasional non-uniform days here, because they just don't offer a comparable situation?

I drink water throughout the day as needed. Why can’t children? Some schools don’t let pupils wear coats to school (but I bet the teachers do) or they have to wear back coats which are not safe on dark mornings. Some schools make their sixth formers wear business attire. I have worked very successfully in a formal profession and don’t wear business wear. You should be able to install purposeful mess and discipline without petty rules.

For those asking - yes it is an academy. And yes nearly all the uniform has a logo so v expense. They even have special pe socks £7 a pair!!

And I love the suggestion than anarchy will follow if people wear the wrong type of shorts! 🤣

Detentions for homework not complete - even when its not clear who/how to hand it in - pretty basic school rule

How can it be a pretty basic school rule, @Hankunamatata? Why should children be punished when their teacher has failed to communicate the relevant procedure?

Massive YANBU.

My DS is constantly punished because he has inattentive adhd and a slow processing speed. He can’t keep up with all the rules and comes home wrecked every day. I can’t wait until he can leave.

For many it’s a really good school and I think his neurotypical, streetwise sibling will love it there. I wish DS could leave but we can’t find a viable alternative and I need to work.