To think secondary school rules are harsh and missing the point

[craxyrulebraker]

DS has just started secondary I just think it is all too much and the focus is all wrong.

You have to ask to take your blazer or jumper off
warning about the 'wrong' type of PE shorts, etc
Not allowed to drink water in lessons
Cautions for forgotten kit
Detentions for homework not complete - even when its not clear who/how to hand it in

Meanwhile very little nurture or pastrol care; poor communication so children don't know what is always expected of them, but scared they will get a detention; hardly any SEN support; very little staff presence at break/lunch times or in corridors; problems with bullying. Schools can't do these basics but tell the kids off for wearing the 'wrong' grey trousers!!

That is appalling. Well, uniform isn't irrelevant (but we're not going to agree on that), but I am genuinely shocked that was their response.

Also, marking and feedback policies seem to change. Ours has changed this year from last year.

'Also don’t recollect anyone needing to go to the loo.'

Yes you're right it was never a thing when I was at school either. No one went to the loo in class time ever. Having said that communal showers after PE were a mandatory weekly event with teachers weirdly looking on so I'm not altogether convinced it was better in the old days!

as for trainers - sensible, practical shoes - but as kids like them, schools feel they have to ban them!

I thought trainers were considered unsuitable for everyday wear in the long term?

Loads of people wear them every day. Including people of all ages. Including professional. I’ve even started to wear them regularly myself now I’ve found leather ones that don’t make my feet sweat.

I thought trainers were considered unsuitable for everyday wear in the long term?

Since when? Maybe converse type trainers, but normal ones? Sure they are most suitable everyday wear, rather than "smart" shoes.

@Janiie The lower end of secondary is very different to the one the top end though. Unless you've taught 7/8/9s in a tough school, you have no idea.

College is a self selecting population. For the most part they want to be there, have opted in to course and can see the "end". The early years of secondary are almost the polar opposite to this. The small one class, one teacher, primary environment has been replaced by a more grown up model. However in the early secondary years, maturity levels are very different depending on the individual. There is also the loss of being 'known' by one teacher, and instead many teachers get to know a small part of you. It does make a difference. I think you'd have your eyes opened if you observed Y7 for a week. The disruption is insane because they don't understand "be less disruptive". They do understand specific guidance.

Good gracious you should be grateful that the school takes the trouble over things like uniform, homework, etc.. Teaches kids discipline and that these things matter. I spent enough time at school in detention for disobedience and it certainly taught me that there are consequences for misbehaviour and rule breaking. Helps later in life certainly.

But a detention isn't a threat when you have one every night for wearing shoes with the wrong colour stitching and 90% of your class are also there for some minor infringment.

I think schools should do all-day weekend detentions like in "the Breakfast Club".

It’ll be because the like’s of you who think things like blazers are important probably still think that GCSEs are important progress. In the real world they’re actually not at all. This may terrifying you, it goes against everything that youve been indoctrinated with, that your brain can comprehend, the last three software development & DevOps people I employed earn in excess of £80,000 a year and don’t have a GCSE between them.

it’s actually absolutely fantastic from a levelling up perspective because the kids that can’t afford the posh blazers, can’t afford the tuition to learn how to take the 11+ if they’ve actually got the raw talent will wipe the floor with the thick but posh kids who’s parents attempted to buy them advantage.

I think it should perfectly possible to have good behaviour, good grades without making them stand when an adult enters a room. Surely it isn't either or with your scenarios? Keep your blazer on or it's a slippery slope to delinquency.

The obvious problem with your no. 2 is surely the lack of homework, not their outfits.

I don't mind rules obviously. Uniform is fine, just not nit picking over style or shoes. 'Black shoes' should suffice, so what if they have a visible logo for example.

Sorry but your exceptions do not prove the rule that kids who are generally well disciplined and turned out at school do the best in life. Of course there are some super-talented people that simply buck the rules through sheer talent - good luck to them. But we are talking about the average student here and how the general rules apply. In general kids who do the best at school do the best at life.

Good gracious you should be grateful that the school takes the trouble over things like uniform, homework, etc.. Teaches kids discipline and that these things matter. I spent enough time at school in detention for disobedience and it certainly taught me that there are consequences for misbehaviour and rule breaking. Helps later in life certainly.

Why? I’m grateful that DS didn’t have a uniform as it saved buying it when I had little money, plus as a basically well behaved pupil, he didn’t get in to trouble for trivial things. So he functions perfectly well in adult life despite never having had a detention! He even manages to wear a uniform as a member of the armed forces!

Worked out for your kid. What about those it doesn’t work out for?

I think it’s probably fairly unlikely they have similar demographics! Or intakes based on ability on leaving primary school.

Aspirational parents would tend to put an outstanding school as their first choice, certainly ahead of one in special measures, regardless of their views on blazers or trainers. Less aspirational families will go for their nearest school. Presumably school 1 is oversubscribed, and school 2 gets more lower ability children based on the over subscription criteria. I guess school 1 also excludes more difficult children, then it’s off to school 2 with them!

It obviously didn’t stop you being disobedient though, if you kept getting detentions for it.

Worked out for your kid. What about those it doesn’t work out for?

I could counter that while all those detentions worked for you and you managed to learn how to behave, there are also plenty of wrong’uns who would also have had loads of detentions at school!

Such as?

I mean, they say they require them, but they don't actually require them. I can whole heartedly say I have never used GCSE science in my career. Or maths other than basic maths (which my husband who coincidentally doesn't have a GCSE and earns twice what I do, is also equally capable of!) And ditto English.

It's not an actual requirement in order to be able to do the job, for a lot of jobs.

Probably most of the people with criminal records!

Such as?

Erm lots of criminals, I would imagine.

Schools can only do so much. They have to be run in a way which works best for most pupils, they can't tailor things for the individual requirements of each individual.

Not only can they tailor things, they have to. There's a little matter of a statutory duty to make reasonable adjustments for pupils with disabilities.