To think secondary school rules are harsh and missing the point

[craxyrulebraker]

DS has just started secondary I just think it is all too much and the focus is all wrong.

You have to ask to take your blazer or jumper off
warning about the 'wrong' type of PE shorts, etc
Not allowed to drink water in lessons
Cautions for forgotten kit
Detentions for homework not complete - even when its not clear who/how to hand it in

Meanwhile very little nurture or pastrol care; poor communication so children don't know what is always expected of them, but scared they will get a detention; hardly any SEN support; very little staff presence at break/lunch times or in corridors; problems with bullying. Schools can't do these basics but tell the kids off for wearing the 'wrong' grey trousers!!

Schools and colleges are different though, because of the ages of children.

The bottle thing is low level disruption. Love level disruption (whether it's a bottle, a clicking pen, someone talking, someone tapping, calling out etc) is the issue. Some schools don't have this problem but for others it is an issue.

So, you suggest that teachers teach over that? Honestly?

@Janiie Have you willfully forgotten that a lot of secondary teachers also teach FE/college age students?
By sixth form the rules about bottles etc aren't needed in secondary either. They're mostly there for years 7 /8/9.

As for effort into teaching; that's rude. (See also 'the teachers don't make the rules').

Yes! They do that too.
They are always surprised when the bottle leaks in their bag and spend the first part of the lesson emptying soggy books, screwed up pieces of paper, random bits of pens, old crisp wrappers, wet PE kits out of their bag onto the desk.
‘Is there a radiator in here miss?’

@Janiie

Do you have colleagues who turn up at meetings and spend half the time drilling a hole in a water bottle lid with a compass? Or scrunch/crinkle the bottle ‘just for fun’ during a presentation?

Maybe they take their pen apart to see if they can fit it back together but end up getting ink all over the table and their hands?

No? I wonder why?

School uniforms drive me insane. Why would we make teenagers deliberately uncomfortable? I’m just looking around my team now - 8 professionals, all earning 6 figures. Not a buttoned shirt or toe to be seen. Certainly no bloody blazers. My friend has just had to buy her 17 year old a skirt and blouse to wear for her “work experience” (which is taking place at the school). Absolutely nuts.

Lol I meant tie not toe but no toes on display either at this time of year!

'Schools and colleges are different though, because of the ages of children.'

Not much different really. A16yr old at school has a teacher measuring their skirt length then goes to college within months and wears what they like which proves strict uniform rules are silly. Just say smart dress, whats wrong with that?

I would like a secondary school head teacher to justify it, the trousers and shoe specification what on earth do they think it achieves? Most teachers are overworked and stressed I think there was a thread recently that many cry at work so surely taking away the incessant obsession over clothes would help??

How do teachers think other professionals like nurses, police etc cope? I bet they'd love a crinkly water bottle and the wrong coloured socks to be something they had to worry about. Perspective is needed.

Schools and colleges are different though, because of the ages of children.

It's funny that most primary schools manage to provide a nurturing environment without these harsh and punitive rules and where the children mostly have freedom to go to the toilet when they want and take off jumpers/sweaters if they're too hot, even though they're dealing with younger children.

Can’t compare primary to secondary.
The number of pupils you would have wandering around for a start.

What perspective exactly?

It’s quite funny to think that teachers should allow all lessons to be disrupted by something as trivial as water bottles and toilet breaks…….because of the nurses 🤣

'What perspective exactly?'

That it should not matter if they have skinny black trousers or m&s classic trousers, it shouldn't matter if they have plain black shoes or black trainers. Teachers should not be lining teenage girls up to check skirt length. They should be teaching them.

'It’s quite funny to think that teachers should allow all lessons to be disrupted by something as trivial as water bottles and toilet breaks…….because of the nurses'

I didn't say that. I said many, like nurses, have far more things to cope with and manage in a busy working day. A water bottle shouldn't even factor. If a pupil is disruptive they are the problem, not the water bottle.

petty rules and micromanagement is why normal kids HATE school and don't have respect or compassion for teachers.

Trainers are fit the sports field, not a professional environment like a school.

Im a professional and I wear trainers to work quite often.

I bet nurses get sick of patients crinkling water bottles during treatments. I’d put money on it actually.

And it’s not deliberate disruption generally. It’s just disruption and easily stopped.

Trainers are fit the sports field, not a professional environment like a school.

Bullshit. Plenty of professionals just wear whatever's comfortable.

You can get some very plain black trainers that are ideal as school shoes.

Oh it’s a professional environment I said so can we be expecting some sort of payment and then for the professionalism displayed by my DC 🤣🤣

Strangely DD's school is OFSTED outstanding, yet doesn't have a rigid approach to the small stuff. DD has worn trainers (plain black) on a couple of occasions because of a school shoe left behind at dance class, and has never got into trouble (even without a note from me). Just explained to her form tutor and said she would be getting her shoe back after school and would be in uniform shoes the next day. No problem.

They can take their blazers off if they are hot. The occasional bit of forgotten kit does not result in a detention. If it is habitual then there is follow up, of course.

If a pupil is rude or disruptive it is dealt with.

As I said, OFSTED outstanding, behaviour excellent, always one of the highest achieving schools in the Borough by absolute results and Progress 8

When I was a kid I remember my parents seemed to have this belief that you should go for the schools with blazers, they're the good ones. Now it seems like it's the schools with behaviour problems that are resorting to strict rules on uniform and branded every as a way to wrestle back control.

Maybe it's going to be the opposite and I'll be advised to get my child into a secondary where they can wear polo shirts as they're the ones without behaviour problems.

'Strangely DD's school is OFSTED outstanding, yet doesn't have a rigid approach to the small stuff. DD has worn trainers (plain black) on a couple of occasions because of a school shoe left behind at dance class'

Good to hear these schools exist! Our schools priority seemed to be behaviour points and endless letters re tights v socks, skirt length, skinny trousers. All very dependent on what may distract the male staff apparently. Just awful sexist crap.

Don't get me started on behaviour points for having the wrong sports socks. Jesus. Meanwhile homework marking and feedback on attainment all a bit patchy. But at least kids kept their blazers on in class .

You're saying that the uniform is about what might distract the male staff? If that's what you're saying - that's a pretty serious comment to be making about the school your DCs attend. Again, if you have serious complaints about marking and feedback - you will have raised this with the head of department? Or are you just trying to be sensationalist?

'You're saying that the uniform is about what might distract the male staff? If that's what you're saying - that's a pretty serious comment to be making about the school your DCs attend'

It is a serious comment isn't it. A teacher told the girls short skirts are unfair for the poor menz. Yes I did raise the marking and feedback and suggested they focus on that rather than if trousers came from Asda's skinny range or M&S classic selection.

Anyway college and uni now thank god where teachers realise attire is completely irrelevant.

Water bottles are different though: nobody needs to be swigging water every five minutes. I couldn’t give a shit about trousers.

Agreed! I’m really glad I taught FE before the need to stay permanently ‘hydrated’ was a thing. Also don’t recollect anyone needing to go to the loo. Whereas blazers and ties are another matter and, as for trainers - sensible, practical shoes - but as kids like them, schools feel they have to ban them!