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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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To think secondary school rules are harsh and missing the point

751 replies

craxyrulebraker · 19/10/2022 22:19

DS has just started secondary I just think it is all too much and the focus is all wrong.

You have to ask to take your blazer or jumper off
warning about the 'wrong' type of PE shorts, etc
Not allowed to drink water in lessons
Cautions for forgotten kit
Detentions for homework not complete - even when its not clear who/how to hand it in

Meanwhile very little nurture or pastrol care; poor communication so children don't know what is always expected of them, but scared they will get a detention; hardly any SEN support; very little staff presence at break/lunch times or in corridors; problems with bullying. Schools can't do these basics but tell the kids off for wearing the 'wrong' grey trousers!!

OP posts:
Canthinkofaname79 · 24/10/2022 20:09

Here's a thought, no blazers at all! Maybe a practical jumper, cardigan or hoodie instead!

calvemjoe · 24/10/2022 20:12

Of course I can, my school had no uniform and people were bullied mercilessly every day for the outfit choices that they made.

EsmeSusanOgg · 24/10/2022 20:39

Snoozer11 · 24/10/2022 12:50

Nobody has a problem with rules.

We all understand that rules are needed in schools to encourage good behaviour and instill some discipline.

I don't have a problem with uniforms. If a teacher doesn't like water bottles on desks, then that's fine.

The problem is the entire lack of critical thinking that some of the staff in schools are unable to apply, and the punishments for minor infringements on the rules.

So yes, have a uniform. That means students should wear a uniform. But it doesn't mean that students need to wear exactly that uniform all day, every day, with no exceptions.

It means that maybe there's a student who wears navy socks instead of black every so often. It means a student might undo their top button. Or tie their hair with a hair tie that isn't the right colour.

It means kids know to come to school in a shirt and tie instead of a football shirt.

In some cases, these things can be ignored, or dealt with with a passing "do your top button please".

But instead, these small things are met with detentions, or letters home, or isolation. All because the school doesn't agree with the stitching on your shoes.

We are all human and it's easy to lose a pen, or forget to bring something with you. We don't need to be punished for it.

If someone turns up without a pen every day of the week, then yes, it should be dealt with. But when you've lost your rubber and haven't gotten around to buying a new one, you shouldn't be receiving a detention.

By all means, have a rule where you don't allow water bottles on desks. But if you see someone have a quick drink while they're getting on with their work, don't stop the class and make them stand outside.

And if a bit has a skinkead, then so what? Don't comment on a child's hair.

Schools should be able to nurture amongst the rules, which I believe many are failing to do.

I know someone who works in a school. He had done so for all of his working life and you could tell that his way of thinking had really been affected. He was an adult, but "rules are rules" and there's no point in having them if you're not going to enforce them. He had no ability to think critically, to look at things from a different perspective am or to just get something done. He would complain about 18 year old sixth formers taking their ties off in the summer.

In my opinion, I think the sensible thing to do is to let 18 year olds cool down rather than have a room full of a dozen teenagers sweating for an hour.

Its a really bizarre mindset which a lot of teachers seem to have. There's no pragmatism.

Everything here. Punishment needs to be proportional. And why are kids in trouble for clothes bought by their parents I will never understand.

T1Dmama · 24/10/2022 21:24

I complained when my daughter was stopped from going to the toilet…. I said there is absolutely no reason to stop a young girl from going to the toilet… what if they started their period half way through a lesson…. What they have to sit in it all lesson till it’s soaked through all their clothing?!…. Absolutely disgraceful if you ask me!

Hercisback · 24/10/2022 21:27

There is every reason to not allow access to the toilet at all times.

Vaping
Sexual assault
Bullying
County lines phonecalls

All reasons where I work.

Hercisback · 24/10/2022 21:28

We can't afford FT toilet supervision. So unless an emergency, students go in break or lunch to avoid the above.

NeverDropYourMooncup · 24/10/2022 21:39

And if a bit has a skinkead, then so what? Don't comment on a child's hair

They weren't banned in schools when my half siblings were at secondary. Neither were boots. Until the National Front started taking hold in the area, then the staff realised that the groups of 12-16 year old boys with skinheads, DMs and whatnots were doing it because it intimidated others to see a small army of racists prepared to give them a kicking if they were accidentally separated from their mates on the way home from school - or in the case of my sister - who got caught in the middle when she came out of the door as it was being swung - within range of a bike chain and padlock aimed at the face round the back of PE.

Pumperthepumper · 24/10/2022 21:40

Also, it’s really disruptive. There isn’t time to do a teaching input, set a task, make sure everyone is working, then catch up the kids who missed all of that because they were at the toilet.

Allonboard · 24/10/2022 21:57

With regards to not letting children go to the toilet. This is unfortunately a very true story, when I was at school, a teenager asked to go to the toilet in class and was refused, it was too late in the end and they were unable to hold any longer. They were was teased and laughed at. That evening they took their own life. They had other things going on but that was the last straw for that child. I've told my children, if you really need the toilet and they say no, you walk out of class. Sometimes you do just desperately need the toilet all of a sudden.

JazbayGrapes · 24/10/2022 22:12

Sounds like a shitty school. Or a very deprived area, where if you don't instill harsh discipline, kids will fight with knives, etc.

user1471447863 · 24/10/2022 23:25

Sometimes even with the best will in the world you just need to pee. And there's no predicting it or avoiding it. As for the teacher and the 'what would you do on if you were on a bus' scenario - well i'd get off at the next stop and pee in the bushes behind the bus stop, assuming no mcdonalds/tesco/pub/cafe.
My kids also have the "ask if you need, and if refused and you really can't wait just go and I'll deal with the fallout" instruction.

@Allonboard a shocking but all too imaginable story. I can't imagine there being too many teens who would be able to live down the rest of their school career as being the one who wet themselves in class.

@Canthinkofaname79 quite right, blazers should be relegated to the 1950's where they belong. There are far more functional items of outerwear available these days. A blazer is shit as a jacket and shit as a jumper, a completely pointless item of clothing that exists nowhere outside of schools.

Feart · 24/10/2022 23:56

Another teacher here and hater of water bottles!
I don’t understand the point of blazers but as a form tutor I have to let the head of year know who hasn’t brought their blazer in. I’m just doing my job because it’s a minor battle that isn’t worth arguing over. This is exactly what I tell the 2 kids in my form who never bring blazers. We have a dress code too just as many work places have. Water bottles cause so many issues on a daily basis and they’re not even allowed in my room due to the subject I teach. I heard of a teacher being attacked by a group of students who threw open water bottles at him. Nobody is going to die if they go an hour without drinking! I can assure you that constantly sipping water does not help concentration in class which is definitely a huge issue in schools. The crinkling, the spilling and the interrupting teaching to ask for a drink is very disruptive. The only thing worse than water bottles is mobile phones!
To those moaning about kids not being allowed to go to the toilet, consider the fact that toilets aren’t supervised during lesson times. I’m sure you wouldn’t be happy if your DC was bullied or assaulted in the toilet during lesson time and there was no witness. Do you honestly believe that every student who asks to go to the toilet actually needs to go? I always say no the first time a student asks but if they are genuine then they will always ask again. Trust me, it’s easy to tell. Behaviour is a bit of a problem in schools at the moment, I don’t think some parents actually think about how much worse it would be without some of the rules currently in place. Rather than criticising teachers and believing that schools are the same as they were when you were young, consider why these rules are needed. I can assure you that it’s not to make your DCs lives difficult.

Squidlydoo · 25/10/2022 00:04

Schools are run for the collective hood rather than the individual. They need to be orderly and calm.

If, in a large secondary school, one person per lesson went to the toilet, that would be 100 students in and around the toilets each lesson. Multiply that as many times as you see fit and you will start to see the problem.

many students do not need the toilet, they ask because they want to check their phones, meet a friend, or just have a walk around rather than focus on the lesson.

Of course there are exceptions but I also know there are regular offenders who ask every lesson of every day.

schools are busy places with reduced staffing and supervising corridors and toilets would be impossible all day. The vast majority of students can wait til the end of a lesson to use a toilet.

BagpussBagpussOldFatFurryCatpuss · 25/10/2022 02:26

@Feart
The crinkling and spilling
You are so right! That sound! 😡

What many people don’t understand is that many teenagers don’t just drink the water, they play with the bottle, flip it, crinkle it, roll it, mess with the cap, spill the contents.
Annoying!

Slv199 · 25/10/2022 06:17

Hercisback · 24/10/2022 21:27

There is every reason to not allow access to the toilet at all times.

Vaping
Sexual assault
Bullying
County lines phonecalls

All reasons where I work.

Smoking and setting fire to the sanitary towel bin when the cigarette is thrown in there not properly extinguished thus interrupting the entire school with a fire alarm was an issue when I was at school.

withaspongeandarustyspanner · 25/10/2022 07:35

BagpussBagpussOldFatFurryCatpuss · 25/10/2022 02:26

@Feart
The crinkling and spilling
You are so right! That sound! 😡

What many people don’t understand is that many teenagers don’t just drink the water, they play with the bottle, flip it, crinkle it, roll it, mess with the cap, spill the contents.
Annoying!

Also, in your school, do they make holes in the top of the bottle cap and squirt it directly into their mouths (if you're lucky), or on the table (if you're not)? Because that's fun.

HiveBee · 25/10/2022 07:37

Slv199 · 25/10/2022 06:17

Smoking and setting fire to the sanitary towel bin when the cigarette is thrown in there not properly extinguished thus interrupting the entire school with a fire alarm was an issue when I was at school.

The teachers clearly aren’t comfortable using the staff room any more for these activities. We need to cut them a Little bit of slack.

Hercisback · 25/10/2022 07:47

many students do not need the toilet, they ask because they want to check their phones, meet a friend, or just have a walk around rather than focus on the lesson.

This is the crux!

The student who asks once a year is likely to be allowed to go. I have students asking every lesson. It's ridiculous.

Rhondaa · 25/10/2022 08:08

'crinkling the bottle Oh dear god the worst sound on earth.'

Lighthearted perhaps, but a typical example of the inability of some secondary teachers to cope.

I wonder if they could all maybe do a secondment at a college to learn how to manage. There the very same kids don't have staff checking shoes, colour of socks or giving them detention for stupid reasons.

The mindset of some secondary teachers is just bizarre. Actually checking girls skirt length! How demeaning and sexist.

Just teach the kids and if 'crinkling the water bottle' is a problem then you need to look for another job.

echt · 25/10/2022 08:14

Rhondaa · 25/10/2022 08:08

'crinkling the bottle Oh dear god the worst sound on earth.'

Lighthearted perhaps, but a typical example of the inability of some secondary teachers to cope.

I wonder if they could all maybe do a secondment at a college to learn how to manage. There the very same kids don't have staff checking shoes, colour of socks or giving them detention for stupid reasons.

The mindset of some secondary teachers is just bizarre. Actually checking girls skirt length! How demeaning and sexist.

Just teach the kids and if 'crinkling the water bottle' is a problem then you need to look for another job.

Would you crinkle a bottle throughout a work presentation? Thought not.

School and college are not the same so have different rules.

Mindset? Teachers. Do. Not. Make. The Rules.

WhatNoRaisins · 25/10/2022 08:16

Personally I don't get the bottle thing but then I've never come close to drinking two litres a day or whatever the ideal number is.

Pumperthepumper · 25/10/2022 08:17

Rhondaa · 25/10/2022 08:08

'crinkling the bottle Oh dear god the worst sound on earth.'

Lighthearted perhaps, but a typical example of the inability of some secondary teachers to cope.

I wonder if they could all maybe do a secondment at a college to learn how to manage. There the very same kids don't have staff checking shoes, colour of socks or giving them detention for stupid reasons.

The mindset of some secondary teachers is just bizarre. Actually checking girls skirt length! How demeaning and sexist.

Just teach the kids and if 'crinkling the water bottle' is a problem then you need to look for another job.

😂😂😂😂 You must be the best colleague in the world if nothing irritates you at work. I used to work with a guy who honked all the snot down his throat every half hour!

withaspongeandarustyspanner · 25/10/2022 08:24

Rhondaa · 25/10/2022 08:08

'crinkling the bottle Oh dear god the worst sound on earth.'

Lighthearted perhaps, but a typical example of the inability of some secondary teachers to cope.

I wonder if they could all maybe do a secondment at a college to learn how to manage. There the very same kids don't have staff checking shoes, colour of socks or giving them detention for stupid reasons.

The mindset of some secondary teachers is just bizarre. Actually checking girls skirt length! How demeaning and sexist.

Just teach the kids and if 'crinkling the water bottle' is a problem then you need to look for another job.

Wow.

You're really patronising. I bet you'd be the first parent complaining if your little darling complained that their teacher allowed it.

Rhondaa · 25/10/2022 08:35

'You must be the best colleague in the world if nothing irritates you at work.'

Things used to annoy me at work Grin. I just don't understand how secondary schools and colleges differ so massively in their rules. Who cares if they wear a tie! They manage to do brilliantly at college wearing trainers.

Some secondary school teachers need to stop obsessing about water bottles and trousers and put as much effort into teaching.

Pumperthepumper · 25/10/2022 08:45

Rhondaa · 25/10/2022 08:35

'You must be the best colleague in the world if nothing irritates you at work.'

Things used to annoy me at work Grin. I just don't understand how secondary schools and colleges differ so massively in their rules. Who cares if they wear a tie! They manage to do brilliantly at college wearing trainers.

Some secondary school teachers need to stop obsessing about water bottles and trousers and put as much effort into teaching.

Water bottles are different though: nobody needs to be swigging water every five minutes. I couldn’t give a shit about trousers.