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To think secondary school rules are harsh and missing the point

751 replies

craxyrulebraker · 19/10/2022 22:19

DS has just started secondary I just think it is all too much and the focus is all wrong.

You have to ask to take your blazer or jumper off
warning about the 'wrong' type of PE shorts, etc
Not allowed to drink water in lessons
Cautions for forgotten kit
Detentions for homework not complete - even when its not clear who/how to hand it in

Meanwhile very little nurture or pastrol care; poor communication so children don't know what is always expected of them, but scared they will get a detention; hardly any SEN support; very little staff presence at break/lunch times or in corridors; problems with bullying. Schools can't do these basics but tell the kids off for wearing the 'wrong' grey trousers!!

OP posts:
Popstops82 · 24/10/2022 07:35

I agree. My dc 15 does not make a habit of needing the toilet in lessons but really needed to go the other day and the teacher would not them go. She said now about if you were on a bus with no toilet? My dc replied, but I'm not on a bus, i can see the toilet through the window!! At the end of the lesson, she ridiculed my dc in a silly baby voice.
It's not setting children up for life as in any work place I've worked in, you are able to go to the toilet when you want to go!

withaspongeandarustyspanner · 24/10/2022 07:39

Popstops82 · 24/10/2022 07:35

I agree. My dc 15 does not make a habit of needing the toilet in lessons but really needed to go the other day and the teacher would not them go. She said now about if you were on a bus with no toilet? My dc replied, but I'm not on a bus, i can see the toilet through the window!! At the end of the lesson, she ridiculed my dc in a silly baby voice.
It's not setting children up for life as in any work place I've worked in, you are able to go to the toilet when you want to go!

Most jobs. Not teaching however. Sadly.

Givenuptotally · 24/10/2022 07:59

OP, retrain and then spend some time in a classroom with teenagers. Have schemes of work you need to get through by a certain date so that said teenagers can pass exams. Have your continued career in teaching dependent on those teenagers passing their exams. Have your school’s reputation and Ofstead experience dependent on those teenagers passing those exams.

You will very quickly understand why no going to the toilet rules or make sure you have your PE kit rules are essential in delivering even a half-arsed education, let a,one a quality one.

remoteblanket · 24/10/2022 08:03

withaspongeandarustyspanner · 24/10/2022 07:39

Most jobs. Not teaching however. Sadly.

Putting the loo thing aside I think this kind of behaviour from the teacher encourages bullying and poor behaviour. If the teacher can’t speak to pupils with respect, it’s no wonder the kids can’t either. Teachers attitudes can be appalling. If an employer behaved like this - they’d rightly criticised for it.

Givenuptotally · 24/10/2022 08:26

Teachers attitudes can be appalling. If an employer behaved like this - they’d rightly criticised for it

sure. But schools are not employers. They do have a job to do, however. And the teacher doing that job to the best of their ability is hindered by the constant demands to go to the toilet because they didn’t go 15 minutes ago when they had the opportunity. Yes, some children will get caught short. But many just can’t be bothered to use the facilities when there is an opportunity and then drink refill after refill after refill.

And as a teacher, I restrict my liquid intake precisely because I know that if I get caught short, there is sod all I can do about it. M

fUNNYfACE36 · 24/10/2022 09:04

Manchestermummax3 · 19/10/2022 22:58

My sons secondary had what I think is the most ridiculous rule ever!
They MUST wear plain blacks socks (fair enough)... on p.e days they MUST wear white socks.
So he has to change out of his black & into white for a lesson, then change back to black!
Who the fuck has time for that extra laundry when you have a teenager who stuffs most of the dirty ones down the side of his bed never to be seen again!

I don't think it's odd to have different a socks for pe kit.in some lessons they will need special socks to hold the shin guard.
Also, i think it is normal to change out of sweaty socks after an hours exercise or so? Finally at a lot of schools girls wear tights and need socks as part of their pe kit

fUNNYfACE36 · 24/10/2022 09:13

NowThatsWhatICall22 · 19/10/2022 23:43

One teacher gives detentions if you don’t meet what she’s thinks you were capable of getting in a test.

Urgh. Translates to the workplace as a bully boss you wouldn’t want to stay working for. Just awful for the dc who arrive at secondary with a love of learning that was nurtured well through primary, the change in environment must be so shocking for some.

At my dcs school, they have to repeat a test at lunch or break if they don't get their target grade, but this is not a punishment. It is to help their learning.

echt · 24/10/2022 09:24

At my dcs school, they have to repeat a test at lunch or break if they don't get their target grade, but this is not a punishment. It is to help their learning

How do you feel about that?

Canthinkofaname79 · 24/10/2022 12:13

funtycucker · 23/10/2022 19:59

Teachers don't choose the uniform

I didn't say they did but someone (governors? I don't know) thinks theres a point to them and I really would like to know what the point is!

Snoozer11 · 24/10/2022 12:50

Nobody has a problem with rules.

We all understand that rules are needed in schools to encourage good behaviour and instill some discipline.

I don't have a problem with uniforms. If a teacher doesn't like water bottles on desks, then that's fine.

The problem is the entire lack of critical thinking that some of the staff in schools are unable to apply, and the punishments for minor infringements on the rules.

So yes, have a uniform. That means students should wear a uniform. But it doesn't mean that students need to wear exactly that uniform all day, every day, with no exceptions.

It means that maybe there's a student who wears navy socks instead of black every so often. It means a student might undo their top button. Or tie their hair with a hair tie that isn't the right colour.

It means kids know to come to school in a shirt and tie instead of a football shirt.

In some cases, these things can be ignored, or dealt with with a passing "do your top button please".

But instead, these small things are met with detentions, or letters home, or isolation. All because the school doesn't agree with the stitching on your shoes.

We are all human and it's easy to lose a pen, or forget to bring something with you. We don't need to be punished for it.

If someone turns up without a pen every day of the week, then yes, it should be dealt with. But when you've lost your rubber and haven't gotten around to buying a new one, you shouldn't be receiving a detention.

By all means, have a rule where you don't allow water bottles on desks. But if you see someone have a quick drink while they're getting on with their work, don't stop the class and make them stand outside.

And if a bit has a skinkead, then so what? Don't comment on a child's hair.

Schools should be able to nurture amongst the rules, which I believe many are failing to do.

I know someone who works in a school. He had done so for all of his working life and you could tell that his way of thinking had really been affected. He was an adult, but "rules are rules" and there's no point in having them if you're not going to enforce them. He had no ability to think critically, to look at things from a different perspective am or to just get something done. He would complain about 18 year old sixth formers taking their ties off in the summer.

In my opinion, I think the sensible thing to do is to let 18 year olds cool down rather than have a room full of a dozen teenagers sweating for an hour.

Its a really bizarre mindset which a lot of teachers seem to have. There's no pragmatism.

Givenuptotally · 24/10/2022 13:25

in all seriousness, how far do you think pragmatism is going to get you last lesson on a Friday with bottom set year 9?!

The problem is, unless you work in a school, you never see the practicalities of classroom management and how quickly - and for seemingly small things - that management breaks down into disorder and then chaos. I am pretty sure that the majority of schools that pick on the small stuff are either Ofsted outstanding (and you had sleepless nights over whether or not your child would get in) or they have a new head (following an RI/SMs inspection) who is doing their upmost to forge ahead with improvements. No one wants their child in a school that Ofsted thinks is rubbish. If there are no rules, and strict ones, it very quickly becomes unruly and unpleasant for many. And schools are hard enough for many teens without that.

Yes, of course I accept some teachers don't use the sense they were born with. Absolutely, take your blazers off in hot weather/loosen your tie/drink some water. But you really do need to accept that when teachers tell you there are rules for a reason, there are rules for a reason!

withaspongeandarustyspanner · 24/10/2022 13:25

Snoozer11 · 24/10/2022 12:50

Nobody has a problem with rules.

We all understand that rules are needed in schools to encourage good behaviour and instill some discipline.

I don't have a problem with uniforms. If a teacher doesn't like water bottles on desks, then that's fine.

The problem is the entire lack of critical thinking that some of the staff in schools are unable to apply, and the punishments for minor infringements on the rules.

So yes, have a uniform. That means students should wear a uniform. But it doesn't mean that students need to wear exactly that uniform all day, every day, with no exceptions.

It means that maybe there's a student who wears navy socks instead of black every so often. It means a student might undo their top button. Or tie their hair with a hair tie that isn't the right colour.

It means kids know to come to school in a shirt and tie instead of a football shirt.

In some cases, these things can be ignored, or dealt with with a passing "do your top button please".

But instead, these small things are met with detentions, or letters home, or isolation. All because the school doesn't agree with the stitching on your shoes.

We are all human and it's easy to lose a pen, or forget to bring something with you. We don't need to be punished for it.

If someone turns up without a pen every day of the week, then yes, it should be dealt with. But when you've lost your rubber and haven't gotten around to buying a new one, you shouldn't be receiving a detention.

By all means, have a rule where you don't allow water bottles on desks. But if you see someone have a quick drink while they're getting on with their work, don't stop the class and make them stand outside.

And if a bit has a skinkead, then so what? Don't comment on a child's hair.

Schools should be able to nurture amongst the rules, which I believe many are failing to do.

I know someone who works in a school. He had done so for all of his working life and you could tell that his way of thinking had really been affected. He was an adult, but "rules are rules" and there's no point in having them if you're not going to enforce them. He had no ability to think critically, to look at things from a different perspective am or to just get something done. He would complain about 18 year old sixth formers taking their ties off in the summer.

In my opinion, I think the sensible thing to do is to let 18 year olds cool down rather than have a room full of a dozen teenagers sweating for an hour.

Its a really bizarre mindset which a lot of teachers seem to have. There's no pragmatism.

The things you have mentioned, teachers do as a matter of course. I know I do. But then you make a sweeping statement about 'most teachers' behaving in a certain way showing they don't have an ability to think properly.

I think it was you earlier, apologies if I'm wrong - it was a way upthread - where you asked how did I even manage to become a teacher as I had no critical thinking skills (or words to that effect) - I really don't know what else I can say - yes, we teach the curriculum that's our job, but our job is also teaching behaviour. We are expected to do this as part of our job.

Never have I given a detention, or even a negative, for a lack of a pen. But I have made a note of it for our pastoral team, when it's happened three or four lessons in a row as it's a signal that something's not quite right and maybe they need a pencil case in school. If they haven't got the right shoes on, we have a chat. Often, their shoes have broken and they can't have a new pair until pay day, so again, we contact the pastoral team to let them know - sometimes school might be able to help out with a new pair, or make allowances until they get a new pair. These are just a few examples - there are many more things like this we do day after day. Of course we use our common sense.

I don't think schools are the awful, uncaring places many of you think they are.

Livetoplay · 24/10/2022 13:41

I tell my DC to pick their battles. I don’t give a stuff if they don’t want to wear their blazers between classes, it’s the school policy. Mainly to keep them from losing them.
they go to a school that has that as a rule, we knew it when we chose that school over the school where the pupils wear polo shirts and jumpers.
If they were to get a punishment for not doing as a teacher asked, for not wearing their blazer, for not handing in homework on time then they have to take the consequences .
they’re not going to go through life having their mum complaining and whining on their behalf.
they may not always agree with a rule or a regulation about something but quite frankly they’ll need to learn to get through a
life full of things they don’t always understand or agree with as adults.

reigatecastle · 24/10/2022 13:42

The problem is, unless you work in a school, you never see the practicalities of classroom management and how quickly - and for seemingly small things - that management breaks down into disorder and then chaos

I don't disagree. But my teachers kept us in line without silly punishments for minor infractions.

But you really do need to accept that when teachers tell you there are rules for a reason, there are rules for a reason

I agree, when I look back at school I can see the point of pretty much all the rules (except for the one that said we couldn't use the school hall as a short cut even when there were no activities taking place in it; and I guess not being able to wear trousers but I can't remember anyone ever wanting to). But there were rules in my son's school I couldn't see the point of eg only boys wearing ties (either both or neither, please). Most of the stupid rules are to do with uniform.

And as a teacher, I restrict my liquid intake precisely because I know that if I get caught short, there is sod all I can do about it well that's not healthy for you. And I assume you don't have heavy periods? Or periods that come out of the blue? And even if you don't, presumably you can accept that some of your female pupils do?

reigatecastle · 24/10/2022 13:43

we knew it when we chose that school over the school where the pupils wear polo shirts and jumpers

Emphasis on the word chose. That isn't an option for most parents using the state system.

Givenuptotally · 24/10/2022 15:07

well that's not healthy for you. And I assume you don't have heavy periods? Or periods that come out of the blue? And even if you don't, presumably you can accept that some of your female pupils do?

no, not healthy. But I can’t leave my class as and when I want to. So I have to manage my aging bladder as best I can. Periods are on their way out so erratic. Again, I mange it with good quality sanitary wear and reusables which I have in place every day just in case. I fully accept some students may need to go to the loo - I would only ever refuse a girl if she were a regular offender.

withaspongeandarustyspanner · 24/10/2022 15:50

Givenuptotally · 24/10/2022 15:07

well that's not healthy for you. And I assume you don't have heavy periods? Or periods that come out of the blue? And even if you don't, presumably you can accept that some of your female pupils do?

no, not healthy. But I can’t leave my class as and when I want to. So I have to manage my aging bladder as best I can. Periods are on their way out so erratic. Again, I mange it with good quality sanitary wear and reusables which I have in place every day just in case. I fully accept some students may need to go to the loo - I would only ever refuse a girl if she were a regular offender.

I hear you. We have to go over two and a half hours without a break. I am menopausal, so bladder issues here, too. I have to not drink so that I can manage too. I usually go home dehydrated with a banging headache as leaving my classes isn't possible.

Livetoplay · 24/10/2022 17:25

‘we knew it when we chose that school over the school where the pupils wear polo shirts and jumpers

Emphasis on the word chose. That isn't an option for most parents using the state system.’

they are state schools. We were in a catchment for 2 and put them in preference order. Still may have ended up in the other one but didn’t. But even that one enforces a uniform policy of logo polo, logo jumper, black trousers etc etc
Not do they like it when pupils don’t do homework, dick about in class distracting others, get up for endless loo breaks.

and any parent on here whinging that their kid is misunderstood by schools making them follow behaviour rules that benefit the whole class should maybe have a look at their kids behaviour. Rather than trying to blame everyone else for it.

Catfordthefifth · 24/10/2022 18:07

Livetoplay · 24/10/2022 17:25

‘we knew it when we chose that school over the school where the pupils wear polo shirts and jumpers

Emphasis on the word chose. That isn't an option for most parents using the state system.’

they are state schools. We were in a catchment for 2 and put them in preference order. Still may have ended up in the other one but didn’t. But even that one enforces a uniform policy of logo polo, logo jumper, black trousers etc etc
Not do they like it when pupils don’t do homework, dick about in class distracting others, get up for endless loo breaks.

and any parent on here whinging that their kid is misunderstood by schools making them follow behaviour rules that benefit the whole class should maybe have a look at their kids behaviour. Rather than trying to blame everyone else for it.

I think you've entirely missed the point.

DeLan · 24/10/2022 18:40

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ as it looked like the work of a troll.

BagpussBagpussOldFatFurryCatpuss · 24/10/2022 19:20

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ as it looked like the work of a troll.

God yes! That would be an interesting social experiment! 😅

BagpussBagpussOldFatFurryCatpuss · 24/10/2022 19:28

I tell my DC to pick their battles. I don’t give a stuff if they don’t want to wear their blazers between classes, it’s the school policy. Mainly to keep them from losing them.

@Livetoplay You are right. Every half term a table is set up in the entrance hall piled high with lost and found clothing and items.
Not just brand new blazers/ PE kits but there are branded coats & trainers on there.
Very few things get claimed ... North face coat anyone? Many teenagers don't look after their stuff.

Imagine the uproar from parents if students were allowed to wear their own (expensive) clothes and they constantly got lost, went missing, went unclaimed?

cardibach · 24/10/2022 19:38

Why on earth shouldn't they keep their coats on if they're cold? Again, what harm would it do, particularly if at some point it will be allowed anyway? Will they learn better if they're too cold?
@LaGioconda you are falling into the trap of thinking all teenagers’ behaviour is rational. I’ve been in school in a T-shirt weight 3/4 sleeve top this last week. Not cold. I’ve had children with a shirt and jumper insisting they are too cold without a puffa on. It’s odd, but it’s not to do with temperature and it actually interferes with their concentration because they are hot/uncomfortable. But they won’t admit it.

WhatNoRaisins · 24/10/2022 19:41

They'll have to re-think no coats when they can't pay the heating bills

Catfordthefifth · 24/10/2022 19:47

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ as it looked like the work of a troll.

Nobody has said they want no homework or uniform or rules though have they?