To think secondary school rules are harsh and missing the point

[craxyrulebraker]

DS has just started secondary I just think it is all too much and the focus is all wrong.

You have to ask to take your blazer or jumper off
warning about the 'wrong' type of PE shorts, etc
Not allowed to drink water in lessons
Cautions for forgotten kit
Detentions for homework not complete - even when its not clear who/how to hand it in

Meanwhile very little nurture or pastrol care; poor communication so children don't know what is always expected of them, but scared they will get a detention; hardly any SEN support; very little staff presence at break/lunch times or in corridors; problems with bullying. Schools can't do these basics but tell the kids off for wearing the 'wrong' grey trousers!!

So you don't think you'd be able to do your job properly without attending a school who doesn't allow you to take your blazer off?

I am able to follow the uniform rules of my workplace and I did not learn this at school.

I think the school mention is much more reasonable than instant detention or isolation, though.

I think it's common courtesy to ask to take off your blazer in class. I never have an issue with it. I usually say 'thank you for asking'. Some students take them off anyway but I don't sanction for it.

Really? Seriously? Why? I’m all for good but that is ridiculous! You’d rather they interrupt your lesson (all 30 of them) to ask, rather than quietly remove it without making a fuss?

Im in Scotland and my DC's go to school here.
Im always astonished at the threads at the beginning of term with children in England getting sent home due to wrong shoes/hair/bag etc.
My DC's school have a uniform but it is basic, black skirts/trousers, white shirts and ties. I have never know anyone to be sent home for wearing something not uniform.
I'm in no way singing the praises of the Scottish education system, far from it but the focus does seem to be on learning not petty rules

withaspongeandarustyspanner · Today 12:49
I should add, that blazers are worn at all times in communal areas, which I do enforce - if you don't have a blazer on in the corridor, expect to be stopped and potentially sanctioned.

But you do know it’s a rule for the sake of rules which is in direct contradiction of a rule adopted by my strict grammar school many years ago where first to third years who were not allowed to wear their blazers in school. It was also a rule that didn’t need to be enforced because it was never broken! Only the older girls had the option of wearing their blazers in school.

Teachers are expected to enforce the rules set by the school. I think that parents forget that sometimes.

Im sure parents know that the rules are not made by individual class teachers and that these teachers don’t have much choice in the matter.

Have to say, I’m so glad DS went to a non uniform school as, otherwise, I might have become that parent!

I agree.

When I was at school detention meant you knew you'd pushed it too far. You'd made a choice to do something wrong and that was the consequence.

Nowadays they are given out for such silly things - simple mistakes that humans make - that pupils don't even worry about them and that makes discipline worse because it has no effect when needed.

Ime the schools that perform best academically are the ones who don't have an over complicated uniform policy that becomes a bigger focus.

Black trousers or skirt, polo and jumper or a kilt skirt.

Pupils shouldn't feel anxious continuously about being in trouble for something as simple as forgetting a rubber. Just ask a mate if you need one!

I did answer the question. Teachers don't think the rules are ridiculous. Students are very keen to tell which teachers don't follow the rules - 'Miss X doesn't make us do that' etc.

We tend to understand that if we are not following the rules, it makes it harder for our colleagues. We're letting them down if we're not following them for an easy life. We're part of a team.

And do you treat your children's teachers like this? No wonder there's a teaching crisis.

Thanks for this.

You're quite incorrect in assuming that I've only ever been a teacher.

I've worked in other industries. Managed just fine - but thank you.

This ^^

or possibly they're acting & dressing like this because they've just left schools that are insanely controlling, where they've been stuck in isolation rooms to stare at the wall for 7 hours a day because they were wearing the wrong colour socks, and nobody actually bothered to either allow them to express any individuality or to teach them that turning up on time and knowing how to dress professionally are useful life skills - just that if you don't follow rules (which can be illogical and arbitrary) you get punished

completely agree OP. Teaching is incredibly hard work but too many teachers (and even more SLTs) deal with it by getting caught up in these ridiculous power trips over unimportant nonsense.

My experience working with young people has not been that you have to control when they're allowed to drink water in order to stop them being disruptive or violent. It's much more effective to treat them like human beings, and connect with the needs behind the behaviours.

I think it's common courtesy to ask to take off your blazer in class

Why on earth would you have to ask whether to remove an item of clothing or not (within reason, obviously). If I am too hot, I decide if I am too hot. Not a teacher, not my employer, not a relative. Courtesy doesn't come into it. Completely ridiculous rule.

I went to what I thought was a pretty strict grammar school in the 1980s. Looking back with an adult lens, I can see the point of most of the rules. But schools now are just petty, my school wasn't strict at all! Yes we had to wear uniform and would be told off for short skirts etc. But you didn't get detention for silly things and even not doing homework would only get a rebuke from the teacher the first time.

Good teachers don't need stupid rules to keep order - they just do, and ours did.

Not to mention the metal ones being knocked over or tapped with a ruler or the squeaky unscrewing of the lids before taking a sip and then screwing the squeaky lid back on again 😳

Treat my children's teachers like what?

Question them on things they can't explain properly? Yes I absolutely would. But as it stands my son's teachers treat him like an actual human being so I don't have a problem with them. If they treated him like shit and let him swelter in a classroom yes I absolutely would have something to say to the head.

Parents now aren't helping their kids learn that this world does not owe them a living, that it wont bend to suit them. Its an awful world and kids need to learn that or they will struggle as adults. Mummy wont always be there to carry them, they have to learn they must carry themselves

As I said on my post above, my school was strict and we didn't get away with much. I don't get carried by my mummy and carry myself, but my teachers achieved that without silly rules about blazers and if we forgot a pen we got the "you'd forget your head if it wasn't screwed on" comment and lent one. No detentions for minor errors.

Also have you asked every member of staff their opinion or are you just assuming

My daughter has long and skinny feet. We can no longer get school shoes in her size. It's really hard finding lace up school shoes among ladies shoes, especially ones that fit her feet. She likes a lace up shoe as they're warmer when standing around at the bus stop on wet days.

The only ones we could find this year that fit her were a black shoe that has a single thin line of white stitching on it. They're a bit like DM's but not as chunky.

She's been told off because of the white stitching. I've asked the school if they can find a shoe that meets their precise requirements in a size that fits her, then can they please tell me where to buy it. No response other than a demand to find other shoes.

She's still wearing the same shoes, but we have to keep colouring the stitching in with a Sharpie pen.

No idea how the stitching on a shoe affects her learning.

If all.teachers refused to.enforce these.stupid regulations they'd be unenforceable. Those who.are rigid ab

Teachers rigid about these rules bring dislike and contempt on themselves. The remedy is in.their own hands, leaving aside my democratic proposals.

I'm not sure what answer you want. One that you agree with perhaps? Maybe that would satisfy you? The expectation in many schools that I have worked in is, that students will wear full uniform in corridors/when walking around the school. The expectation is that staff will enforce this. Like we will enforce that students sit in their chairs/use pens/engage in lessons etc.

As for knowing my colleagues' views on things - we meet regularly in training after school. We interact as members of staff and tend to talk about things like this during these sessions, especially if we're talking about behaviour. So I would say we all have a pretty good idea about how we feel about rules and enforcing them.

Still waiting to hear the purpose of blazers and ties? Teachers? Maybe you can explain it?

The expectation in many schools that I have worked in is, that students will wear full uniform in corridors/when walking around the school.

Do you know why? What difference would it really make if some students choose not to wear blazers in the corridors?

I don’t let mine drink during lessons either. It’s like being stuck in a room with hamsters slurping away and they invariably get spilled or need refilled AND it makes them go to the toilet more.

Uniform rules are outdated and pointless. So are detentions.

It’s a behavioural management point, a way to assert your dominance over them.

I want the actual rationale. I'm never going to agree with it, it's bollocks, clearly, but I'd like to hear the justification.

Id say you have an idea of what they say at work. Very different to how they actually feel I imagine. Let's face it we don't sit there and say oh I think the boss is a twat at the staff meeting but we might be thinking it.