To think secondary school rules are harsh and missing the point

[craxyrulebraker]

DS has just started secondary I just think it is all too much and the focus is all wrong.

You have to ask to take your blazer or jumper off
warning about the 'wrong' type of PE shorts, etc
Not allowed to drink water in lessons
Cautions for forgotten kit
Detentions for homework not complete - even when its not clear who/how to hand it in

Meanwhile very little nurture or pastrol care; poor communication so children don't know what is always expected of them, but scared they will get a detention; hardly any SEN support; very little staff presence at break/lunch times or in corridors; problems with bullying. Schools can't do these basics but tell the kids off for wearing the 'wrong' grey trousers!!

Done flexibility might ease disruption though, too. DD2 had to have a 'uniform pass' at her large secondary because she couldn't cope with the texture of the blouse.

In her new school (small independent specialist school), she explained her sensory difficulties and the school said fine, wear a polo shirt instead of a blouse, tracksuit bottoms instead of trousers (but please try to find plain black ones), etc. She still looks like she's wearing a uniform but she's comfortable.

The school are being unreasonable. As long as they have petty rules I doubt teachers ' claims to be overworked Perhaps their next industrial action could involve not enforcing petty rules.

Home is not generally given to teachers these days. Some is uploaded and emailed to teacher, some is on the school app and some is on another app entirely.

Yes and some teachers want it submitted via teams.........
My daughters at a different school year 10 and hands in homework exactly the same way for each lesson.

I don’t think it’s a question of are they able to do these things, for me is why does the school prioritise this over learning. In my son’s school 3 girls were in internal exclusion for the serious crime of wearing eyelashes. Now I think they look ridiculous but that’s my opinion. It’s against the rules, but why? They in no way interfere with learning, however being out class for a whole day missing all the teaching does.
Likewise with wearing comfortable footwear. I would say that this enhances learning because the kids are comfortable but no someone somewhere has deemed that secondary kids can only learn in uncomfortable black school shoes.

Yep no coats allowed. It's so the school year group tie can be seen at all times so if there is any trouble people can ring the school and say oh they had green/purple/yellow/red tie on.

Another secondary which is a bus ride from us you ate. Only allowed to wear a school coat

FFS. So in their book school discipline is more important than children's health. It really tells you everything you need to know about the mindset of the people who make these rules.

The enforcing of petty rules does increase the workload as it gets in the way of teaching and learning, which still has to happen, e.g running a detention. However industrial action case only be about pay and conditions, not a school's day-to-day rules.
Also, you say some rules are petty and I can assure you decisions about them are not decided at classroom teachers level. If it's pissing you off, go to the governors.

Yet again, if only parents had a realistic choice so they could boycott schools that have ridiculous uniforms - but they don't.

The only justification for uniform is they one you have given, but ONLY if every school has a basic uniform which can be bought in any cheap supermarket and with appropriate adjustments for children with sensory difficulties. There are still far too many schools that insist on ridiculous blazers and ties, and other items can only be ones with a logo which seems to increase their price by at least £10 per item. If the government really meant its own guidance, there would be a proviso that schools with unnecessarily expensive uniform would automatically fail Ofsted inspections.

However, I think it is a bit of a myth that, with no uniform, social differences come into play. So many countries have no uniform at all in the vast majority of their schools, and don't seem to suffer that problem. Children tend to end up just wearing whatever they find comfortable, which sounds entirely sensible.

DS went back to school on Wednesday after testing positive for covid on Saturday (school said he could go back Tuesday but he still wasn't well so kept him off an extra day).

His substitute maths teacher told him off for coughing into his elbow rather than his hand as "he was going to give him a disease". We've told him to do that as per CDC guidelines. Dickhead. I dread to think what he'd have been like if he knew he'd had covid. DS actually thought he was going to kick him out of class (in which case words would have been had!)

good grief I got through 14 years of school without drinking water during lessons absolutely fine - is this a thing now?
what’s wrong with drinking at break time and lunch time?

TBH I am pretty horrified by the school system. It's soulless. All about conformity and arbitrary rules, like those you've mentioned. It's feels like they assume the worst in everyone and that kids need to be institutionalised in order to learn.
I wouldn't mind so much if they got great results but they don't! I mean yes, some kids do well, according to one very narrow set of measurements, but so so so many kids just fall through the cracks and are never really seen for what they have to offer the world. Tragic really.
I am so tempted to take my son out all together to be home schooled like his sister.

One thing you learn - people in authority tend to be petty spiteful arbitrary and unreasonable have strong tendencies towards paranoia and megalomania and make up.rules to amuse themselves. Invaluable preparation for working for bosses dealing with officials and living under a government!

Oh - why couldn't teachers include not enforcing petty rules among their next industrial action?

I answered that upthread when you asked it the first time.

Industrial action case only be about pay and conditions, not a school's day-to-day rules.

I agree. Retired teacher, I didn’t encounter the water obsession but the comments on here mostly fail to understand the nature of groups of children in classrooms.

What I think is incredible nowadays is that boys are punished for having their hair too short!

A short back and sides is timeless and is good enough for the military, but not good enough for a secondary school.

No consideration for the rate at which it grows, the thickness, the colour of the hair, the amount the child can grow or whether it suits them. They have no ability to determine whether it's shorter than a grade 2, yet they put you in isolation if they believe it is. All because your hair is a millimetre shorter than they would like.

It's completely batshit.

I agree, I have one a seniors, and two older, and the younger one, is always mentioning, teachers giving out demerits, or S- somethings. And though they are clever, they are always worried they may get one.
its ridiculous, nothing like that when i was at school, or a few years ago.

our school also insists on school bought trousers and skirts with logos, jumpers with logos optional, but they have to have school blazers

why? When barely anyone wears formal clothes in work anymore.

completely pointless and time wasting.

At my school, I had a navy skirt and jumper, and could wear burgundy pixie boots, no one cared, I was jealous my friend, had lots of uniform to choose from, but it didn’t ruin my life. We all wore ties, real ones, managing not to kill each other, and that was enough.

Less expense and parental stress than trying to get the uniform, in the right size, in time for term, from the overpriced, school profiting school outfitters.

I don't think the rules you have listed are that bad but maybe it's an issue of culture. Some schools do have a very authoritarian and inflexible culture whereas others can be strict but still fair and nurturing. I suppose an example would be a school with a no-exceptions detention policy for lateness, even 1 minute, vs a school with a strict expectation of punctuality but which doesn't unfairly enforce the rule when a student had a good reason for lateness. Basically it's treating students like human beings and not just bodies to be controlled and bossed around.

But it's definitely not right that students don't know what's expected of them, where to hand homework in and so on.

Maybe they don't earn enough to dress impeccably, preen their hair and wear good quality, subtle make up.

Perhaps - being young adults - they haven't been able to save anything to spend on looking good at work, and the money they do earn is being swallowed up by rent and commuting costs.

Michaela just got the best progress 8 results in the country so it is hard to argue that strict application of rules isn't at least a factor in that success.

I spoke to my son's secondary school and told them they had been lucky enough to have a very studious, well behaved young boy attending their school in my son, but they were breaking him down with their punishments for ridiculously petty issues. His attitude was swiftly becoming "what's the point in behaving when I get in to trouble anyway".
Fortunately they listened and backed off but I did have to contact them 2 or 3 more times about other ridiculous situations which they also backed down on.
Don't be afraid to speak to them and point out the negatives of what they are doing!

I think we have lost our way with education - it’s crowd control, hoop jumping poor quality childcare. By luck some kids fit and some thrive, those who don’t learn to survive it.

@Snoozer11 make excuses all you like, jeans, trainers and hoodies are not acceptable in some workplaces, which have been selected over uniform provided. We have had parents come in with their children to tell us why their child’s behaviour can be excused. Smoking weed at work wasn’t the norm when I started out. You are absolutely correct that people might find it a struggle to buy certain things but there is a difference between someone who can’t afford and someone who has attitude and doesn’t care.

You are actually proving my point there, standards have dropped as adults yet the rules at school are stricter thsn when I was at school. To me this implies that schools are definitely getting it wrong now! Perhaps they are rebelling after years of being treated so appallingly. I went to a strict girls school but no blazer, no branded uniform. I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me the benefit and purpose of blazers. I've never worn one in any job I've done.