To think secondary school rules are harsh and missing the point

[craxyrulebraker]

DS has just started secondary I just think it is all too much and the focus is all wrong.

You have to ask to take your blazer or jumper off
warning about the 'wrong' type of PE shorts, etc
Not allowed to drink water in lessons
Cautions for forgotten kit
Detentions for homework not complete - even when its not clear who/how to hand it in

Meanwhile very little nurture or pastrol care; poor communication so children don't know what is always expected of them, but scared they will get a detention; hardly any SEN support; very little staff presence at break/lunch times or in corridors; problems with bullying. Schools can't do these basics but tell the kids off for wearing the 'wrong' grey trousers!!

Maybe because if, after you leave school, you turn up to a job interview looking like a total scruff bag and don’t get the job because the employers think you have made zero effort?? I don’t agree that all grey trousers need to be identical but being able to look presentable is a life skill and it tells a story beyond just whether you can get dressed in the morning

I didn't wear a blazer to school and have had several interviews and got every job. It is not a prerequisite of knowing how to dress smartly. We do not have to be forced to wear blazers in hot weather to know how to do that.

Every job bar one actually, but they never said it was the lack of blazer

I don’t think I mentioned blazers?? I was talking about looking presentable.

Reading this thread I think I have been lucky with my DC school. DC1 had trauma issues, DC3 has dyslexia, DC4 is SEN and the school have picked up issues and found solutions far quicker than primary ever did. They have certain rules regarding uniform. Shirt tucked in, blazer must be worn outside of classrooms, tie neat etc. Hair can be any style and colour. They can use their phones in certain areas during break and lunch but it is 100% their responsibility. Homework isn't really homework just revision of that days lesson. Detentions are a thing but rare.
I assumed things had changed big time since my day 😳

So what's your point? You can look presentable in any school uniform. They don't have to be expensive and exactly the same down to the socks to instill that. Therefore, it's still a bullshit rule.

Actually in some areas there isn’t really a choice of school. We live in a town that has one secondary school. It has a dozen primary schools so there’s choice there but then everyone ends up at the one high school. You would only opt for a school out of town if you were catholic as the only catholic secondary school for the entire county is out of town. The next nearest secondary school in the next town is also the next county and that would cause a whole host of issues trying to get into. Sometimes their students do apply to our secondary though as it has a better rep. But they often have to appeal to get in as the one secondary school we have is full. If you move to the area after places have been allocated for the year then you’d likely travel out of town until a place comes available. This isn’t very often and usually due to people moving house out of the town or when children get accepted into an sen school. We do have an sen secondary in our town - EHCP required as with all send schools. No send primary though so taxis provided out of town.

My daughter is overwhelmed starting seniors, she’s so anxious about it all that she’s got so run down that every week she’s either picked up a sickness bug or colds/virus’….
I do feel year 7 should be easing them in a little more gently!
my daughter doesn’t feel safe saying all the older kids are fighting, swearing and vaping!
one day she came rushing in saying she hadn’t been to the toilet all day because she was too scared to go in there!!
I think they’re allowed to drink though, only not allowed in science

YANBU - I think some of the rules are ridiculous. Personally I want my children to feel respected and to have mutual respect for their teachers, handing out detentions for the slightest things is not the way to get children to learn and engage or how they learn to respect teaching staff.
My son's school give detentions for every single late, even if there is major traffic problems which causes half the school to be late - they all get detentions. Even if their mum's car broke down on the way to school - detention. Even if they woke up and their pet cat had died and they needed an hour to compose themselves - detention. I'd be interested to know if teachers are punished in the same way.

They also won't let anybody go to the toilet, there's been girls bleeding through their uniform, a boy had the runs and had an accident. It's appalling.

They make these rules claiming that they're doing it to prepare children for employment- but how many employers punish you for being late once? Or how many employers don't allow you to go to the toilet? My boss would laugh if I asked to go to the toilet!

This isn't how I want my children to be raised, I want them to know that if their boss is a wanker they can leave and find a job where they feel valued and respected. But treating kids like this is teaching them to tolerate unreasonable rules or being mistreated.

The sooner my kids are out of the schooling system the better, I can't stand it.

I am a teacher of many years. There is quite a lot wrapped up here.

Some rules do seem pointless and some really are. Things like uniform and asking etc on the surface seem arbitrary but in reality young people need more than the academic content to be ready for whatever their future lies ahead. There will be rules and restrictions and having to adhere to simple ones now isn't necessary a bad thing.

Forgetting equipment and books impact learning and require warnings I don't agree with no water in lessons unless a h&s issue such as a lab. My students have water bottles, fill them and go to the loo in my lessons. I know which ones are testing boundaries and I am happy to challenge this.

Homework expectations should be clear. Timetable and maximum time it should take. The task and submission date should also be very clear. If not then a sanction to the student is unfair. I sit on the fence with homework as it is but some instances homework is necessary.

The real reason for your post is because of the remainder. Lack of pastoral care and contact. This is a basic that needs to be there from day 1 because if we teach happy young people they will lean on us when things fall apart. They do and we can support them. I take pastoral responsibilities very seriously and would book a meeting at your first opportunity to discuss these matters.

Ultimately you're starting that why should your child and other young people at the school care what they look like if nobody cares what they feel. The school might not agree but you can't argue someone's feelings are wrong.

Mine has just started and the lack of clarity on homework is terrible- for the child I mean- is it online? Is it on paper? As parents we are told nothing. Same petty uniform rules- I agree with uniforms but not being allowed to take off your jumper is ridiculous! Some kids are hotter than others! All in all I dont see how any of it helps foster an environment for learning.

Madness. I shake my head almost daily at the petty power trip rules. I worked in FE for over 20 years where I taught young people in - gasp- their own clothes without the sky falling in, where they drank freely (and I'm so old that at one point they could have any drink!) with a minimal number of spills over the years and a polite excusal was all that was required to go to the loo. I tell my daughter that if she needs to take her blazer off, she's to do it and she won't be turning up to any detention. I don't know what teacher training covers these days but I do think they need to introduce a module on treating children like human beings.

My autistic DD finds the rules very stressful. She actually likes and needs rules, so it isn’t the rules per se. It is the delivery of them. She is terrified of doing anything even slightly wrong as the punishments are disproportionate to the offences. She also gets really distressed by all class punishments which are the epitome of unfairness. Appreciate teachers have a horrible job in general but so many children are anxious these days that I do think a kinder more nurturing approach would be more effective.

Whole class sanctions are inappropriate and I have never supported them. The whole body of 15/20/30 students didn't all act in the same manner.

While I understand the point that some rules seem pointless and trivial, I think there is a much wider issue here. Parents trying to argue the toss all the time and believing rules don't apply to their little darlings (despite prob signing a home school agreement...) does not build any kind of resilience in children. Rules make the majority of children feel safe and running to the school every time little Johnny forgets their PE to sort it out for them does not help anyone.

The behaviour in secondary can be absolutely dreadful. Many schools are finding it hard to get or retain teachers because the behaviour is so awful. Strict rules are only necessary because some students and parents simply don't care. Turn up without any equipment, what's the problem? Turn up late, so what? Interrupt the teacher, big deal. No homework, well it's confusing and hard to get organised. The reason our schools are in such a state is that kids and parents take very little responsibility.

I think this thread goes to show a lot of children feel threatened rather than safe.

But a detention for everything isn't the answer. It's not scary any more if you've had 20 before the first half term. Getting put into isolation was a massive terrifying then when I was at school. Now it's a normal occurrence for forgetting your pen. It doesn't make kids behave better ime. It makes them think fuck it I'll end up in isolation anyway so why bother.

beautifuldaytosavelives
I suggest you trot in to your local secondary and teach a few days. You might change your view after a day teaching a group of teens who literally don't give a shit about their teacher or the ability of the kids who do want to learn.

What?! Even in winter?

As someone who was at secondary school in the late 70s/early 80s all of these rules were enforced & more.
I still remember the voice of my fabulous French teacher saying at the start of every lesson “Asseyez-vous, si vous avez chaud, otez les blazers MAINTENANT”
Also we weren’t allowed to take snacks & drinks into school at all. You got water fountains in the corridor & water at lunchtime & that was your lot.
We had a very strict uniform code & I was only at a bog-standard comp. You adhered to it or you got detention, simple.
Of course we all complained, but no one listened. I’m not saying it’s right, just it’s not a new thing.

What do schools do? In the past, kids brought stuff with them because it was expected and parents supported the school. Now, they don't.

Well you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. Maybe stop making parents pay £300 for a uniform and they might be a bit more willing to provide stationary etc. I'm not saying it's right to not supply it, but tbh I can understand people's frustration.

Very much so, my sons school. Have 5 minutes to get from one classroom too another, but poor Y7's are only new and don't have an idea where the class rooms are.
They play music, which stressed my son out big style.
They still get that after PE, they get 10 minutes, 5 at the end of the lesson plus 5 to get to there next class, only a fire fighter goes from one set of clothes to the next in 5 minutes and that's with there trousers already been in there boot's.
I don't get that rule,
My son also stresses, when he might be 5 minutes late to school, as he doesn't want to get detention.
I think there is too much pressure on, the kids uniform and not enough on dealing with bullies.

Because they squeeze the bottles to make an orchestra, glug glug glug instead of drinking, make a big pantomime of smacking their lips and wiping their mouth, accidentally pour water over another classes jotters, make puddles of water on their chairs for the next class in to sit on.
The LEA were too gutless to ban the water from the classroom but bizarre teachers like me banned it anyway. A couple of silly parents complained comparing our classrooms to the.Sahara desert and the dangers of dehydrating when made to sit for fifty minutes after having a drink at the door.