To think secondary school rules are harsh and missing the point

[craxyrulebraker]

DS has just started secondary I just think it is all too much and the focus is all wrong.

You have to ask to take your blazer or jumper off
warning about the 'wrong' type of PE shorts, etc
Not allowed to drink water in lessons
Cautions for forgotten kit
Detentions for homework not complete - even when its not clear who/how to hand it in

Meanwhile very little nurture or pastrol care; poor communication so children don't know what is always expected of them, but scared they will get a detention; hardly any SEN support; very little staff presence at break/lunch times or in corridors; problems with bullying. Schools can't do these basics but tell the kids off for wearing the 'wrong' grey trousers!!

British and more specifically English children are the most stressed , anxious and pessimistic in Europe. I really think we need to be concerned with this. A recent study showed that overly strict and rigid parenting and by extension schooling is hard baking anxiety and depression into children's brains.

No one is saying that there should be no structure /rules but a few firmly enforced guidelines are much better than hundreds of nonsensical petty little rules about things which are often beyond the individuals control and which do not allow them to develop skills of self regulation.

The other day I got dressed and went to work only to find my shirt was on inside out, a colleague quietly pointed it out and I rushed off to correct it, I made a mistakes , mistakes happen, no one isolated me for a day because I had made an innocent mistake. Mistakes happen, no one is perfect all the time and implying to young people that nothing less than perfection is acceptable is deeply damaging psychologically.

We live near 3 secondary schools so do have choice - two are very honest about their rules and are quite strict. They are also honest about it, at the y6 introductory talks both schools said we are strict - uniform, absences & homework etc The other alternative school doesn’t have as many rules.

Out of the 3 schools guess which 2 have good GCSE results, and which 1 has had 3 school name changes over the last 12 years and not such good results. On Facebook parents have said I won’t send my children to the the strict ones and other parents pulling their children out to homeschool from the 3rd option due to bad behaviour and bullying especially.

If that’s honestly the explanation it’s even weirder than the rule!

@ MarshaMelrose any number of reasons a child may need to drink water- as a teacher- I need to drink constant water- don’t be a prick - there’s nothing wrong with water and it’s needed for many other reasons than becoming “dehydrated”

Indeed. I don't think it shows respect at all. Plus why on earth would you respect someone who is happy for you to boil slowly to death in hot weather? I wouldn't! I'd think they were a twat.

@cyclamenqueen I can well believe it. Surely it's common sense to gently get into routines, remind them and perhaps say by half term you must be bringing your kit in etc.

Not slamming them hard when they have so much to do?

It's also petty rule's that turn people against rules,I've often wondered if that's why they do It?

My kids have gone to Uni now but by the time they left their secondary school I had got to the point where I couldn't open another email from the school. My kids were well-behaved and always had the right uniform but the rules left me feeling that teachers have got big issues with control. They responded quickly to minor uniform infringement but weren't so quick to improve poor-quality teaching and bullying.
I supported the school in the sense that my kids always did what they were supposed to - but we didn't respect the rules, we played the game - we all thought the rules were daft and made the teachers who enforced them look very silly.

As a teacher I should have hoped you could think of expressing yourself in a non vulgar way.

I already adressed all your points in my previous posts.

Even teachers are allowed to swear on MN.

We’re not in school.

I'm sure that reasoning came from people who didn't know what kids are like - if it's on their backs, they're not going toleave it behind them like they do with PE kit, books homework, ties, musical instruments, lunches, water bottles, coats, scarves and everything else that's frequently found abandoned on the field or lunch hall, never named and usually with the kid insisting that it's disappeared, not neglected.

i don't think anyone needs to be constantly drinking water, but that's a general observation.
The obsession with school uniforms in Egland (are Scotland, Wales and NI the same) is batshit. Utterly complete bullshittery of the highest order. Having to ask to take a blazer off? a jumper? The Wrong Trousers? (unless they're tie-dyed loon pants or something).

And there should be more support for the new kids over the first term, showing what the expectations are, a bit more guidance etc. Like an onboarding at work. (since schools witter on about preparing children for the world of work with their batshit uniform rules, how many of us get plonked down at a desk at work - or your equavelent - and told to just get on with it, right first time or sanctions? if you do - your workplace is shit too)

have now caught up on rest of thread.
None of the arguments anyone has made here for very special uniform (including special 7-quid sport socks) is convincing. The alternative isn't anarchy and children turning up in disco gear, either. How about comfy shoes that give good foot support, trousers/skirt/shorts (black or grey or whatever not outlandish colour is easily found cheaply if needed). When i was a kid in Germany in the 70s there was no uniform. Default gear was clogs or kickers or whatever footwear was current and comfortable, jeans, t-shirt + sweatshirt, yellow/blue rainjacket (I lived in the north, the southern parts may hae been different) in summer and parka + Arab-style scarf in winter.

For my DCs? it settled to jeans, t-shirt, hoody, jacket by secondary.

School uniform is the norm across most of SE Asia, Australia, Africa and quite a few parts of S America. I think also Russia but don't know about Crntral Asia or the Middle East.

Some of which are renowned for excellent school results and extremely poor mental health/school-life balance. Others for their dictatorships. Some for good school results and good places to live. Which of those does England want to be?

All schools have to do is to keep to the rules that have been established about uniforms not being wildly branded/expensive. Academies make up their own rules and it's batshit.

I do get it about behaviour and water bottles etc. But some teachers are good at controlling their classes, others have to instill fear and hand out detentions and sanctions to get quiet and control. People tend to work better for the former, that is the same as the world of work.

Brefugee
Still the same. 2 DC at 4 different schools:
Workplace appropriate, not see through / up / down, and no offensive prints.

I think rules are over the top but back in my day I didn’t eat or drink a thing from breakfast until getting home and it didn’t do me any harm

Swear at someone? That's OK?. I would have thought that saying people can go a lesson without drinking wouldn't be cause for a teacher to call someone a prick. Certainly disagree but why, with all the time you have to think about what you're writing, would you go out of your way to be deliberately abusive to someone?

And there should be more support for the new kids over the first term, showing what the expectations are, a bit more guidance etc. Like an onboarding at work. (since schools witter on about preparing children for the world of work with their batshit uniform rules, how many of us get plonked down at a desk at work - or your equavelent - and told to just get on with it, right first time or sanctions? if you do - your workplace is shit too)

I couldn't agree more. At my last school form periods at the start of the day only existed for Year 7s, and they solely dealt with the transition into secondary. As the year progressed, more responsibility was expected of pupils, and the school's standard sanctions phased in. Parents were kept in the loop as everything was online.

Don't get me started on why all year levels didn't have a form period.

Marsha complaining about a personal attack is fine, that’s not allowed on MN (and you can report to get it deleted).

But you criticised ‘vulgarity’ because the poster was a teacher. Like I said, we’re not in school.

Really? How good was your concentration?

I will agree that the need for blazers and some of the 'branded' uniform items are a bit OTT (in my opinion) but that's the uniform policy.

However, if the uniform policy is clear then the children should wear the correct uniform and wear it correctly.

If homework is given then it should be handed in on time.

If sports kit, textbooks and stationary are required then it is up to the children (with the support of the parents) to ensure it is taken to school.

If the rule is 'no water bottles during lessons' (and, having spoken to teachers, there's very good reasons why this rule exists) then don't have a water bottle out during lessons.

None of these things are difficult. None of them infringe on human rights. Overlooking rules and standards (even if you don't agree with them) shows a lack of leadership and authority which, given teachers deal with hundreds of kids/teenagers, is essential in maintaining a productive environment for education.

I don't always agree with some of the school rules and, if I feel strongly enough, I may feed this back to the school. HOWEVER (and this is my main point), parents and teachers need to provide a united front when it comes to following rules and expectations.

The idea of telling your children 'this is a silly rule so don't worry about it' completely undermines the whole schooling process (and it's this attitude which has probably led to stricter rules and harsher policing of said rules being required)

It seems to me that because teachers and indeed senior leaders in schools have so many things they are not allowed to do, they have introduced or continued with rules on the few things that they can, such as uniform. They I expect also have a lot of support from some parents, until their child is affected.

Academies seem the worst, though that may be perception.

Because it was a vulgar attack. I referred to them being a teacher because that indicates that they're educated enough to find alternative words that express their disapproval.

that they're educated enough to find alternative words that express their disapproval.

Fuck that.

Because it was a vulgar attack. I referred to them being a teacher because that indicates that they're educated enough to find alternative words that express their disapproval.

get to fuck with that. You aren't the thread language police.

Back to uniform: the government says they shouldn't be hugely expensive branded stuff etc. Who is going to come here and sincerely justify 7 quid sports socks?

Really they can't with uniform. They're not supposed to have logod stuff available from only one place and it's not supposed to be expensive but it so often is and absolutely nothing gets done about it.