A question, mostly for men, how bad ’locker room’ talk really is?

[Sonervousimgonnathrowup]

I guess women can answer too, I’ve certainly have heard some horrible stuff, some men don’t wait to have an all male audience, but I’m guessing men know the real truth.

My male friends job involves visiting various building sites and has told me he often over hears conversations such as rating women they see out of ten and making comments like she’s only a three but any hole is a goal and stuff like that.
he said once he overheard a man who was bragging his girlfriend let him finish on her face! And he got his phone out to show the men a picture of it and no one thought it was strange and all were like nice one and stuff like that!

You're going to regret asking OP. Fingers crossed for you, it will be an education.

No worse than a group of women together. It all depends on who they are.

I overheard a builder a few doors down a couple of summer ago, on break or something, chatting to two others. One guy asks why he likes weed so much, the main guy (who took up most of the convo and was essentially shouting) said words to the effect of “I’ve got to smoke it every day or I’d fucking murder my missus, proper strangle the life out of her, she’s always fucking on one, when am I gonna help with the kids, what’s happening with the car, fucking cunt is a nightmare and doesn’t know how close she is every day!” Just laughed and laughed.
I couldn’t see the faces of the other two and only the profile of the main one, unsurprisingly they didn’t say anything negative in response.
Given the frequency with which men, fathers, husbands, boyfriends (sons even!) murder the women in their lives, I found that “joke” chilling.
It made me sick to my stomach to be honest and I had to go inside for the day.

That’s just the one that sticks out most because it rang across the back gardens on an otherwise lovely sunny day.

There are so many others I’ve overheard in pubs, on the train or bus, in my school days even, men bragging about “destroying cunts”, making their girlfriends “choke”, “gag” or even (said gleefully!) “spew” from rough oral (“and then I made the dirty bitch eat it!”). Whether these are fantasies of theirs designed to impress other men or not, it’s still utterly grim.

Similar to PP and the “any hole’s a goal” (heard that first on the playground), even a “fucking rotting dead one” accompanied by guffaws. As if there haven’t been horrific cases of men murdering women and defiling their corpses, or morgue workers and funeral home employees desecrating women’s bodies in death.

Comments like “get yourself a fit disabled one, then she can’t run away or grass you up!” As if women with disabilities aren’t abused in our care homes or communities, as if it’s great to do things that would warrant a response of a partner trying to flee or report you…

I mean, it might be “jokes” or “banter”, but when this disgusting stuff actually happens in the real world, it does make me wonder what some men would do given half the chance or in a society or culture that had different norms or legal systems. And for the ones just having a laugh, do they know that this vile stuff actually happens to women or is it all hypothetical and hilarious to them?

Also, not quite “talk”, but there are far too many internet sites and chat rooms where men and boys gather to share their gruesome tales of what they enact on women and girls, from ejaculating into their female housemates toiletries when they’re out, to stealing clothes, “secretly” urinating in their bedrooms or setting up hidden cameras (and sharing the footage online).

Bla bla bla not all men, but Jesus plenty.

I work in a male dominated sport with a significant number of ex-military blokes.

They're more careful who they talk like that in front of these days... But yes, the trash talk, sharing of private photos and general misogyny (& racism and homophobia) still goes on.

Not all men... but far too many of them!

I think you've only got to listen to and see what some men do in plain sight to imagine that what they do in a 'safe' environment with other men or on the internet/whatsapp/echo chamber etc .

I work in a risky /male dominated industry and it's unbelievable what grown, intelligent men will post in public (semi private) that makes you shake your head in disbelief. Never mind what they do/say in meetings etc which sometimes make me reel a bit.

You've only got to read the news eg the dehumanisation of the Nicole Smallman and Bibaa Henry by two serving police officers or Sarah Everard.

Then there's the every day sexism project

Followers of Andrew Tate etal.

To be honest I think society is worse now that it was 20/30 years ago - we might have got the nude calendars out of the locker room (I wish!) but we've not removed the 'banter' which disguises the misogyny, sexism and generally phobic behaviour. In fact because of the web we've allowed it to flourish.

Yep not all men, etc etc

and every single mother of sons, will swear until she is blue in the face their ‘her’ son would never say or do anything like that. I hear it all the time. But men are secretive and the nicest ones will surprise you. I’ve begun to realise that the way men present in front of women and their families is often poles apart from when in a group of men.

I am in NO way blaming the mothers of these men btw. It’s societal. I have no way I can think of protecting young men /teenage boys and younger from seeing and then joining in with this sort of thing when it’s so common and wide spread.

but this blanket denial of anyone’s son being like that is an issue. Because it prevents it being addressed and creates a culture where girls are not believed.

It's not my personal experience but I don't hang out with arseholes.

When I used to work for a building firm there were a fair few horrible people though. Not so much sexism or misogyny though, more racism.

Pardon me, I think I'm in the wrong room <backs out quietly>

I've got to say I've heard some pretty disturbing stuff in the women's locker room too. It's a different kind of nasty to what I've heard goes on in men's locker rooms. Women tend to target individuals for abuse and criticism whereas men (I think) speak more generally. Women focus on specific "problems" specific people might have, men talk more in generalisations (hence the casual sexism, racism and so on, dismissing entire groups of millions of people). Women talk about things that they perceive to be true whilst men talk more about the realms of fantasy, things they know are not true but on some level wish were

@VoiceOfCommonSense thank you! I’m sure my family would agree, I’m precious 🥰

Ever been on a rugby coach....

Absolutely vile I lost respect for alit of the men I was friendly

Some of the songs and chants were disgusting

I think it happens when you get groups of men together- not all men of course.

Women can be pretty ribald, but I've never heard any light-hearted banter about sexual violence.

What a depressing read as the mother of young adult daughters.😣

@VoiceOfCommonSense run along now, The Sun won’t read itself.

DH worked on the building sites in the 00s. Now maybe Ireland is different but there was a zero tolerance for any kind of catcalling to women and you were liable to get fired if you wolf whistled at women. One guy did get sacked on the spot and not a single one of the crew thought it was unjustified. So that gave me some hope that attitudes were improving.

But we've a long way to go. When Aisling Murphy was murdered it was a shock to DH that literally every single woman he knows all had several experiences of sexual harrassment or threatening /unsafe behaviour. I remember detailing to him that I've been routinely sexually assaulted and harassed by men from when I was an underdeveloped age 12 child and that he - even if he didn't partake in the banter - was part of the problem if they even condoned the whatsapps of 'destroying her' or that sort of chat. That if he condones it, some of the men who say it, think it's ok to do it, and push the boundaries of women and girls safety, and some go on to do worse.

I pointed out that he dismissed his childhood neighbour as 'harmless' when I and his sisters told him that he visibly hates women and he doesn't feel safe. I pointed out all the times when men tried to talk to me at 7am at the bus stop and called me a cunt when I politely told them I wasn't interested. That at least once a month, I had some man 'squeeze' past me in a shop, copping a feel when there was ample room for him to walk past without touching. When you can't turn down a date without abuse unless you lie and say you've a boyfriend. Like it's ok when you are the property of another man to decline a date but not if you are just a single woman.

And that basically don't even fucking talk to me about my safety like its suddenly dawned on you when I've been carrying my keys though my fist like fucking wolverine since I was a teenage girl, if he was ever content to stay in a watsapp group where men routinely degrade women in the guise of banter.

I've a son. And I really, really hope that I'm teaching him all I can. And his dad is a good 'un, I know he avoids the kind of men who are derogatory towards women, and hope he adds balance to the kind of stuff my son will hear elsewhere. I am finding though that DH didn't realise the half of it, or how dangerous it can be and that banter isn't harmless.

I work in gyms (I'm a personal trainer), I'm also a gay man for whatever context that provides, if any.

99% of men are silent in changing rooms. It's like a Trappist monastery in there most of the time. Straight men in particular are not chatty, and are even less so when naked. Most of them won't even make eye-contact, let alone speak.

The issues, as I've observed them, seem to crop up when you've got groups of men who all know each other. Team coaches for sports, stag dos, corporate away-days, that kind of thing. It is quite often initiated by one berk, and then the others join in. As a gay man I've been on the receiving end of this as well.

Schools are still bad, I think. Teenage boys, especially straight teenage boys, can be utterly vicious about pretty much anyone. Football team supporter culture is another nasty pit of base and overtly tribalistic male behaviour.

However, in a broader context I would observe that the overt 'locker room talk' (the Trump sort of thing) is less common now than it was 10 years ago. Although I think there are different channels (mainly online) for dickheads to get their misogyny on.

At a previous gym I worked we had issues with a group of blokes who started to monopolise the men's jacuzzi and talk a lot of crap about 'birds' and 'tits'. Dear readers, they were not ornithologists. (Or indeed 1970s comic strip characters.)

But the interesting thing was, several people complained, and they all had their memberships cancelled. Bear in mind this was a men's jacuzzi so it wasn't women overhearing and complaining; it was other men who were hearing this crap and deciding it wasn't on.

I don't know what the answer to this is. I don't know that there is one. Not a simple one, anyway. Some posters in FWR will talk about 'men as a class' getting their act together. I get why they do this, but I don't know how realistic or practical it is. We're not all on a single massive WhatsApp group.

The amount of people who defended Donald Trumps admission of sexual assault as locker room talk showed me it's really fucking awful.

How many men do they know who brag about the exact same things - and they support them?

I fucking hate them all.

It varies tremendously - in my experience majority of blokes are absolutely fine, while others are absolutely disgusting. Often you can guess what type they are - typically those in 'the trades' (builders, plumbers etc) are a pretty bad.

But it's not always those you'd expect.

I'm in a sports team (so this example is quite literally locker room talk). It's a very male dominated sport (probably 100:1 around here), so a female participant is quite a rarity. There is one regular lady in an opposing team of ours (I'll call her Emma, not her real name). She's young and quite attractive, so competing against her is a bit of a novelty. A few men get 'distracted' and put off their game. That's forgivable, it's possibly because female participants generally play in a slightly different style to men - more skill to compensate for slightly less brute strength.

Anyway, I was in the locker room after match with 3 or 4 us left from my team, and we got onto the subject of what was on the menu for our post match meal. One of our players commented "Is Emma the main course?" Then he followed it by saying "I'd be doing her up the arse so I don't get any of your lot's sloppy seconds." Not the first time he's said stuff like this.

The really shocking part is that he's a head teacher at a primary school, and in his late 30's. Married with young daughter too. He can obviously keep it squeaky clean when the audience dictates, personable and professional, you wouldn't have a clue what he's really like. But out of ear shot he's absolutely terrible.

I’m aware me and my mates are outliers, but personally no, I’ve never come across behaviour like that, even when it’s just a group of men.

im aware I surround myself with like people, and that any non-friends probably modify their behaviour so I don’t see what really goes on.

I wouldn’t be ok with it. My friends wouldn’t be ok with it. We are, i accept, unfortunately probably a minority.

So @cheshirebloke did you (or anyone else) challenge the demon headmaster on that comment?

(I'm not asking to be goady, I'm genuinely interested. I think twice about intervening with groups of men like this and I'm 6'4 and reasonably Hemsworthy. So I know it's not always as simple as 'SAY SOMETHING!')

Why would I read that rag? Someone is precious and a snowflake when they
say stuff like they got sick to their stomach and had to go inside for the rest of the day because they overhear some knobhead saying something they don’t like, regardless of the horrible things he was saying about his partner. I’d hate to think what she would be like if she had a real problem herself..

Lots of men have special "man banter". It's pretty common at work to hear men talk about their wives in nasty terms. I think mostly to do with upbringing; if your father does this, then the son will too.

Some men don't, but then they are literally raised by better men.

When we had builders they didn’t know i was there and I overheard their conversations. Swapping recipes for lamb curry / bitching about other builders / some mild but affectionate moaning about “the Mrs”. Nice guys.