Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Will Liz Truss resign today? Part 2: PMQs

989 replies

sunnydaytoday0 · 19/10/2022 10:24

Well she's staggered on to PMQs today. Get the popcorn ready.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
Alexandra2001 · 20/10/2022 08:42

@Kellie45
And the whole reason we weren’t an emerging economy is because we hadn’t the economic policies to make us one. The opportunity is now gone. Labour are now coming in and that will be ruinous

Do you even know what an emerging economy is & how money markets treat them?

Are comparable countries in Europe, with better public service higher GDP's and far better productivity, seeking to become "emerging economies"? nope because that ship has sailed.

We need high end manufacturing, financial services, education, Green tech/energy, world class medicine and pharma...these are things we can export... not factories making Nike shoes or the Tories allowing China to buy up our last chip company or corrupt our universities.

Everything and i challenge you to prove otherwise, has gotten worse over the last 12 years.

RedToothBrush · 20/10/2022 08:43

Hmmph · 20/10/2022 08:11

This is such an utter shambles. How can a party go from massive majority to this in 3 years? Boris was a liability and had to go, but the party was in an ok state at that point and a new leader should have improved things. But Liz Truss and her friends in the ERG have literally destroyed the Conservatives.

I'd quite like Labour to lead the country - we really need them. But the country works best when the parties are matched in the polls and neither has a massive majority. It makes them all more near the centre and leads to sensible politics. I don't want a landslide Labour majority. Or SNP as the opposition - that is NOT a good thing.

The conservatives need to ditch Truss and get someone vaguely sensible in today. Then call a GE early next year.

How?

Brexit was turned into a grievance vote. Some people voted for Brexit because they didn't get their bins emptied often enough. Surveys at the time showed that only 7% of the population voted based on issues that were actually about the EU itself. Anyone who tells you differently is lying.

No one defined what the shape of Brexit would be. It was the policy of the leave campaign that was shaped by Cummings. But equally those who set up the vote and were remain also failed to define Brexit. Its not a remain v leave thing. Its a basis mismanagement issue. Cummings is effectively the Godfather of this.

The next few years were a battle to define Brexit. The whole of parliament fought to impose their preferred choice. But May couldnt get a majority on any option even with free votes without party lines. Her Deal was the last opportunity for a sane solution. It got shit canned by everyone who failed to see the point in politics which was such a tipping point.

So she called an election and then got worse and eventually she had to resign and there was another election and that turned into voting for the figurehead of Johnson. Johnson policies of going for the red wall were a continuation of those grievance voters. He chased them. He stole actual labour policy to do it (which then got shit canned too)

Even he at times struggled to unite the party. Then covid happened and then Ukraine happened.

These both laid bare years of unpreparedness and attention to food and energy security and sparked an economic crisis. This was compounded by the inadequacy of the Brexit deal. To date the Northern Ireland protocol remains a disputed point. Many warned about this prior to the ref.

And so Johnson never actually delivered on solving any of those grievances and then got sucked into a party standards row.

Then Truss came along. She decided that her vision for the future was aligned with the hardest line libertarians within the party in terms of economics. This version of Brexit Britain was the one talked about long ago as being the one most wanted by nefarious oligarchs and millionaires but massively out of step with the public. To the point of insanity. But Truss knew better. These nut jobs are all about things like disaster capitalism. Again many warned about this. None of which are in the interests of the public at large. So Truss has actually already achieved at least part of what they wanted, which is to fuck over the uk for the benefit of the super rich. That not even the well off middle classes who might earn £100k a year who have been turned into a weird kind of bogee man. It's actually worst than that. It people who are worth far more than that and are even smaller in number.

Worst bit is I think Truss was oblivious to what would happen. She's demonstrated she has a complete lack of understanding of how politics works. Her attempts to save her own neck yesterday and today are insane and in line with sheer incompetence. Even more so than not understanding the financial markets. Truss has been doing this job at the highest levels for 10 years!

It was never about Brexit. Because Brexit in practice was never really about the EU. It was a device to capture grievance voters who otherwise would vote against the sitting party. It required grievances to be fixed. No one did and then two black Swan events fucked us over even more.

And that's the story of how we got here.

Volterra · 20/10/2022 08:45

There is a certain irony stating that Labour getting in will be ruinous when we are watching the literal disintegration of our current government before our eyes live on TV - after they spectacularly tanked the economy and there has been discussion as to whether a lettuce can outlast the current PM.

L1ttledrummergirl · 20/10/2022 08:46

And the whole reason we weren’t an emerging economy is because we hadn’t the economic policies to make us one. The opportunity is now gone. Labour are now coming in and that will be ruinous

Are you deluded? How can anything possibly be worse than this?
I thought we'd reached the low point with Johnson but this is something else.

Less than 10 minutes before that (putinesque) "vote" the MPs from across the house were unsure if it was a confidence vote or not. Tory MPs were caught between a rock and a hard place largely of their own making and again let down the constituents and the country.

Despite this, they still want to keep Truss in position for at least 12 hours.

Wtf are they thinking?

WatchoRulo · 20/10/2022 08:54

It was never about Brexit. Because Brexit in practice was never really about the EU. It was a device to capture grievance voters who otherwise would vote against the sitting party.
This is a fascinating idea - one I hadn't considered. I'd accepted received wisdom that it was like 1975 - significant cabinet disagreement about EEC/EU causes the PM to say "we'll let the country decide" (whilst thinking they will get the right answer). The dark interpretation you have is appealing in an awful realisation kind of way.

WatchoRulo · 20/10/2022 08:55

I also can't believe anyone can sensibly claim Labour would be worse.

Alexandra2001 · 20/10/2022 08:55

The next few years were a battle to define Brexit. The whole of parliament fought to impose their preferred choice. But May couldnt get a majority on any option even with free votes without party lines. Her Deal was the last opportunity for a sane solution. It got shit canned by everyone who failed to see the point in politics which was such a tipping point

I don't recall you arguing for Mays deal at that time, which she made very clear , was no SM or CU or UK in any other structure of the EU, including Erasmus.

T.May put party before country yet again, we agreed on this on the various Brexit threads at the time.

Hers was a poor deal, which Bojo repackaged and sold as his own in 2019.

A sane solution to Brexit was to treat it as an advisory vote only, if that couldn't be done, then join SM.

Kellie45 · 20/10/2022 08:58

WatchoRulo · 20/10/2022 08:55

I also can't believe anyone can sensibly claim Labour would be worse.

For goodness sake think! It was Starmer who wanted to keep us permanently incarcerated when covid was about. The country will resemble what East Germany used to be. Don’t fool yourself

Kellie45 · 20/10/2022 09:00

Alexandra2001 · 20/10/2022 08:42

@Kellie45
And the whole reason we weren’t an emerging economy is because we hadn’t the economic policies to make us one. The opportunity is now gone. Labour are now coming in and that will be ruinous

Do you even know what an emerging economy is & how money markets treat them?

Are comparable countries in Europe, with better public service higher GDP's and far better productivity, seeking to become "emerging economies"? nope because that ship has sailed.

We need high end manufacturing, financial services, education, Green tech/energy, world class medicine and pharma...these are things we can export... not factories making Nike shoes or the Tories allowing China to buy up our last chip company or corrupt our universities.

Everything and i challenge you to prove otherwise, has gotten worse over the last 12 years.

You obviously haven’t a clue!

LadyWithLapdog · 20/10/2022 09:01

@Kellie45 stop with the massive gaslighting. We haven’t all been asleep or stupid these past 12 years. Or else just stop trolling.

WatchoRulo · 20/10/2022 09:02

Kellie45 · 20/10/2022 08:58

For goodness sake think! It was Starmer who wanted to keep us permanently incarcerated when covid was about. The country will resemble what East Germany used to be. Don’t fool yourself

We're already like East Germany only with Thatcher as Lenin and Truss as Eric Honecker.
Starmer argued for an earlier lockdown at a point where it actually made sense - Boris was happy to let people die (as he said himself).
I know who I trust/fear most out the two.

Igotjelly · 20/10/2022 09:02

@Kellie45 stop talking out of your arse.

AlecTrevelyan006 · 20/10/2022 09:03

Kellie45 · 20/10/2022 08:58

For goodness sake think! It was Starmer who wanted to keep us permanently incarcerated when covid was about. The country will resemble what East Germany used to be. Don’t fool yourself

That was then but this is now.

Alexandra2001 · 20/10/2022 09:03

Kellie45 · 20/10/2022 09:00

You obviously haven’t a clue!

Ha ha You can prove that by listing all the vast improvements we have all had since 2010 can't you?

RedToothBrush · 20/10/2022 09:05

Alexandra2001 · 20/10/2022 08:55

The next few years were a battle to define Brexit. The whole of parliament fought to impose their preferred choice. But May couldnt get a majority on any option even with free votes without party lines. Her Deal was the last opportunity for a sane solution. It got shit canned by everyone who failed to see the point in politics which was such a tipping point

I don't recall you arguing for Mays deal at that time, which she made very clear , was no SM or CU or UK in any other structure of the EU, including Erasmus.

T.May put party before country yet again, we agreed on this on the various Brexit threads at the time.

Hers was a poor deal, which Bojo repackaged and sold as his own in 2019.

A sane solution to Brexit was to treat it as an advisory vote only, if that couldn't be done, then join SM.

There are plenty of MNetters who can confirm that me and BigChoc were about the only two who were saying we thought May's Deal was the only route out.

Go back and look. I said it was something we'd come to look back at differently with hindsight too. All written down on here as record that I can't take back or edit.

I wasn't a fan of it, but I thought it was our least worst option.

BTW if you trace things back prior to the ref, ukip was the refuge of the grievance voter after than coalition. The coalition was arguably the result of grievance voting too.

No one has actively voted FOR a party and its vision since 1997. That's how politics has gone for decades in the UK

I decide my vote based more on who I dislike most and I think a huge number of people do the same. The whole Anyone But the Tories is a manifestation of that. Its not pro Labour and that in itself is telling. And worries me in terms of where things will head after this government.

Volterra · 20/10/2022 09:05

@Kellie45 I am reading your posts torn between thinking please do stop with this absolute rubbish and wanting to see what you are planning to come out with next . It’s oddly fascinating on a morning that is feeling really quite surreal .

SleeplessInEngland · 20/10/2022 09:06

Kellie45 is a tory bot and not worth engaging with. He/she counts on people being annoyed enough to waste their time replying.

Anyway, nothing will happen to any MP who defied the whip. As usual, it's a commns clusterfuck, but they're hardly going to want to rile backbenchers fruther.

LexMitior · 20/10/2022 09:08

@RedToothBrush - you are right.

The story of Brexit is always "what do we do"? The people who govern us are just empty vessels. They get filled in by people with a far nastier agenda.

The irony is that the Red Wall are going to get more immigration, not less. Shapps will loosen the immigration rules, not tighten them.

Social care - there won't be a cap and that's a permanent state of affairs.

Employment rights - due to be decimated by Mogg using his REUL billl. Those will be in the gift of ministers, and managed by statutory instruments so there's no accountability.

Trade - if it comes in, it will take a decade to make a difference.

Levelling up - that was never going to happen, but now it's actual cuts in funding.

Most of the stated reasons why people voted for Brexit will never materialize. I can't think of one that actually come true. People have voted to be poorer. They will be.

NoMichaelNo · 20/10/2022 09:08

I think the idea is to make the news so bad that it’s a relief when the power cuts kick in.

WatchoRulo · 20/10/2022 09:10

NoMichaelNo · 20/10/2022 09:08

I think the idea is to make the news so bad that it’s a relief when the power cuts kick in.

😂

RedToothBrush · 20/10/2022 09:11

The most telling thing is the die hard blues who are currently planning to vote red. If that's not a grievance vote I don't know what is.

Its about government failure to deliver. Its about a lack of oversight and attention to detail. Its 30 years of career politicians who don't know how the country works at a fundamental day to day level in terms of supply chains and provision of services.

Of all political persuasions.

Ideology rather than knowledge has driven things. We've been sticky taped together by the civil service which is increasingly cracking at the seems and pays spectularly badly.

We are a crock pot island which has collectiveless lost its grip.

I can't fundamentally blame Truss tbh. Its been a long time coming this point.

Its a mess.

Great entertainment, but catastrophic.

Volterra · 20/10/2022 09:12

@Alexandra2001 I remember Redtoothbrush saying May’s deal was only way out. I lurked a lot and had come to that conclusion so wrote yet again to my Tory MP to ask him to vote for it having voted against previously and was surprised when he actually did so sticks in my mind very well.

Alexandra2001 · 20/10/2022 09:12

No one has actively voted FOR a party and its vision since 1997. That's how politics has gone for decades in the UK

Plenty vote FOR a party and their idea's, i know i do.

Anyone but the Tories? nah, if the Tories come out with great policies, i'll vote for them.

But the nature of the beast was exposed by Charles Walker MP, he was terribly upset by Truss and her shambles of a Govt BUT his concern was for the Tory party, not the nation & that is how they rule us.

SleeplessInEngland · 20/10/2022 09:12

I decide my vote based more on who I dislike most and I think a huge number of people do the same. The whole Anyone But the Tories is a manifestation of that. Its not pro Labour and that in itself is telling. And worries me in terms of where things will head after this government.

It'll be shit for Starmer for a long while and I'm sure he knows it. But he'll also be encouraged that Labour's balooning poll numbers haven't been mirrored by the Lib Dems, as you might have expected from the tory desertion. Whatever he's doing, it's working.

LexMitior · 20/10/2022 09:14

The scary thing is that Truss thinks she is good. Truly.

The Tory Party do not have the self awareness to realise that her, and indeed Johnson, had huge flaws. If they did, they thought they could control them. This is both naive and stupid.

She will carry on making a pigs ear of this country until she is deposed.