Are people that want zero immigration racist?

[equalstime]

People that moan about migrants coming to this county - taking our jobs - taking our houses - draining the medical system - not settling in the first country they reach for asylum- they're racist right?

There will always be an element of migration and when you take account of UK born people that leave and non Uk people that enter our country, the net figure is no doubt reasonable. They are often willing to work and contribute to our society and economy - so why the hostility?

Why not accept as a country that we have en element of migration and embrace that, if not because your views are racist?

But it leads me on to my next point (environmentalism) - I’d rather keep my petrol fiesta on the road than have the blood of African children mining for battery components on my hands.

How have you avoided it for your phone?

There is (imo) no arbitrary standard. But, as with all choices in life - there are consequences.

I’ve been an immigrant elsewhere and was stunned when I returned to the uk to see just how much “stuff” the British have. Consumerism is not “standards”.

But there is huge inequality in the UK at least compared to many European countries. The reality is living standards will decline most for the have nots who often have limited choices. The haves are mostly insulated from the consequences.

NRFT but Japan afaik has a (almost?) zero immigration policy.

I think brits can go there for a year to teach English but can never become permanent residents (unless through marriage?)

But they are feeling the negative effects of this policy.

They have social cohesion but an elderly care crisis and perilously low birth rate.

No one seems to accuse them of being racist though?

@Aphrathestorm English people are the only people in the world who are not allowed to have any concerns about who lives in their country and how their tax money is spent. If you even think about this you are racist. Other countries are allowed as they have cultures. Apparently our culture doesn’t exist so there is no reason for us to care who lives here and the affect this has on the nation.

Anyone moving to the uk is a vital health care worker. To notice this is not true is racist.

Every other country is a paradise of integration where all immigrants are welcomed and there is no racism. Only in the uk are people made to feel unwelcome.

Crimes committed by people moving to this country don’t matter because we deserve it anyway because hundreds of years ago we had an empire. Because we are all still racist because of history. Other countries empires don’t matter because they are not England. Even Scotland’s colonialism is ok. Only English people are guilty of empire crimes and we deserve to pay. Doesn’t matter if your ancestors were peasant farmers dying at 30 they were still privileged so you should, by that rational, accept Albanian refugees, who are not refugees but their country is not as rich as England.

If people come from a country worth less wealth we have a moral duty to give them some of ours, with no question of if we can afford it, if it is beneficial to the people who already live here. Or you are racist.

It is never the fault of other countries leaders and citizens for the problems in their countries. Only English people are responsible for all the worlds ills. Say otherwise and you are racist.

These are the mumsnet rules.

@Mycatsgoldtooth spot on.

👏👏👏👏👏

The way you phrased it op, yes. Eg immigrants coming here taking our money etc.

However what happened to us as a country a decade ago has unfortunately skewed what normal immigration is because Tony Blair didn't properly due due diligence on potential immigration figures.

The level and volume of immigration we had In a very short space of time was extraordinary and I don't blame anyone for being deeply concerned about that.

Overall of course properly controlled immigration and migration is something that enriches any country.

It is a new time in 2023 with global warming and much else. Most popular Western nations are going to have to decide how many new people they want to move in to their countries. No one is saying it is an easy issue but the UK has taken far many more people than many countries. Eg Canada is much much better than the UK with much more space and yet has about half the number of people we have in the UK., In 2022 the Uk had its highest net immigration ever at about 500,000 (about 1m immigration) (which if this is really going to lead to more tax generated and better better lives for British people I have yet to see the evidennce)

The Brexit vote was nearly 7 years ago. There's no excuse for a lack of trained staff anymore, except from professions where it takes more than 7 years training to do the job.

Given our family history, I've possibly a different perspective. Our family moved back to England in early 70s (from Southern Rhodesia). Since that time, we've known many people who've here, including children of families that worked with us. Lots of Zimbabweans moved here during the 90s especially. Personally, I think the door should be (mostly) open to people from former colonies, protectorates, etc. with whom we have a shared history.

On the other hand, I'd have serious reservations about people moving here from other locations (eastern Europe), with whom we have very little share history.

I'll also state, working in the software industry, that we really don't educate enough good quality local talent, and there is no sign that will will change. Encouraging people from abroad, with relevant qualifications, is critical for tech industry here. The US are very effective in taking the best/brightest/most educated i the tech area, without having the cost of training them in the first place!

You sum it up so well

Haven't we done this already by allowing the people in those countries to come to Britain and be edit from that wealth.

The common people of the time had no say in policy or a vote a

Benefit from the wealth

On the other hand, I'd have serious reservations about people moving here from other locations (eastern Europe), with whom we have very little share history.

@ScreamingBees I agree with your broader point but not this, and find it bizarre you don't recognise many Brits have a shared history with eastern Europeans - whether through present family or heritage, and also global historical "events", but at least you acknowledge your bias or lack of perspective as it were.

The argument over the need for NHS staff would be solved far easier if it wasn't impossible for so many to go to university.

My nephew trained as a Doctor and qualified in 2021, it cost over 50k to do so and he now has that debt for however long it takes, rather than qualifying and being able to own a home he is sharing a rental with 3 other NQ doctors.

Nurses do now get a bursary but it's not enough of an incentive.

Even those who do manage aren't respected, and we will inevitably lose them to Australia and New Zealand. Nephew has already been headhunted by the US.

When so many nurses are having to supplement their income with UC, itself a soul destroying and anxiety fuelling hellscape, why would anyone bother?

And that goes for teachers, police, you name a key worker and they get paid shit and treated like shit.

Imagine getting into so much debt only to be treated like dirt!

All these issues link up.

So many are leaving school now, only GCSEs or A'levels, can't afford uni so skilled careers that could last a lifetime are out of reach. There's no retail industry on a level with when I left school, you have so many zero hours rip off jobs which doesn't offer secure pay. So then it's topped up with UC. They can't buy homes or get a mortgage, fuelling a social housing crisis. They can't afford anything but the basics of food, so no cars, no holidays, no retail therapy as they have to watch every penny for rent and utilities. So no VAT going back into the country.

So open up education past 18 as means tested, offer careers for those who want academic careers. And bring back stuff like teaching car mechanics, plumbing and building to those who aren't so fussed on uni.

It just seems so obvious to me. But instead we rely too heavily on workers from abroad. Which puts kids already here at a disadvantage.

We're in a tourism and retirement area. Sell up in the North West buy in North Wales eventually health declines. So you need carers. The Eastern Europeans I know are more caring and nicer than the retirees offspring back in the north west who can't be bothered to care but are paranoid about losing any inheritance.

Hospitality. Reception, housekeeping, restaurant, kitchen. They're hard working and reliable.

God only knows what they think of us.

Excellent post, spot on

The argument over the need for NHS staff would be solved far easier if it wasn't impossible for so many to go to university.

What ? And go against 40 years of government policy ?

My nephew trained as a Doctor and qualified in 2021, it cost over 50k to do so and he now has that debt for however long it takes, rather than qualifying and being able to own a home he is sharing a rental with 3 other NQ doctors.

If he took the Western Australian governments offer up, he wouldn't have to repay it ...

Thankfully, he doesn't want to go abroad due to family. He said it is tempting though as he works bloody hard and gets little appreciation.

Not from patients, although he's had a few get gobby, but he puts that down to wait times and people having unrealistic ideas of wait times and waiting lists in general. He also said he mostly excuses it because he can tell they or their family member is frustrated, often anxious, and it comes out in anger from time to time.

And I agree about 40 years of flagrant ignorance of low skilled jobs being the only thing available, hence why so many are unemployed or in sectors that don't cover bills and rent.

Both my friends sons are planning to go to Australia as doctors. Leaving behind broken hearts. BUT parents understand why.

I am a white immigrant from a socially acceptable EU country settled here by marriage. Also my heritage is part British. Even though I still speak English with an accent, when discussing immigration I get the same reaction as the other white professional PPs: ‘I didn’t mean you’.

The NHS and social services are gasping because of years of underfunding, not an exploding population.

I agree with those who say that much of the anti-immigrant sentiment is really disguised xenophobia and racism. The NHS and the social care, farming, academic and STEM sectors need immigrants! Jobs are not being properly filled from the home population.

People definitely accuse them of being racist! Japanese society is shockingly so, I don’t think many people would seriously argue otherwise.

It’s more bloody ignorance than racism. I work in the Care sector and the company I work for has just recruited a whole bunch of amazing people from Zimbabwe - They have worked in equivalent healthcare jobs mostly in Harare. We have been hideously short staffed for months and finally have the help we need. They are courteous, hard working, have excellent English and are incredibly valuable to our sector. They are all individually renting rooms at £500-£600 per month on salaries of £26k - they are employed on 3 year contracts and have husbands and kids who may join them - their husbands’ jobs range from accountant to Médecins sans Frontières nurse - when their families join them, their kids will excel at school and as family units they will not be living in social housing or claiming shed loads of benefits.

The point is the vast majority of immigrants are a huge asset to our economy and society and people need to get their heads out of their arses.

If you are going to play the GDP line goes up rhetoric you should at least understand the annual income you need to be a net beneficent to make improve the GDP line, for one it is about 10K more than the wage you have implied with no children, and that is including the hidden VAT that some like to state, that is before we introduce supply and demand on housing/gp access etc.

The vast majority are used as backfill low paid work or to flood the market to prevent wage inflation, whilst the majority of immigration is a good thing (and I am an immigrant myself) some people need to understand they are championing thatcher free market/neolib policies cloaked under e left leaning umbrella.