Are people that want zero immigration racist?

[equalstime]

People that moan about migrants coming to this county - taking our jobs - taking our houses - draining the medical system - not settling in the first country they reach for asylum- they're racist right?

There will always be an element of migration and when you take account of UK born people that leave and non Uk people that enter our country, the net figure is no doubt reasonable. They are often willing to work and contribute to our society and economy - so why the hostility?

Why not accept as a country that we have en element of migration and embrace that, if not because your views are racist?

Race baiting. It would be much easier for you to say you love it. A bit like Diane Abbott.

Nation of immigrants argue about immigration. It's so fucking hilarious.

Those who want zero immigration rarely want to live with the consequences of zero immigration:

• Reduced state pensions and benefits - due to aging demographics and declining workforce
• Reduced health service - fewer healthcare professionals available, reduced funding due to contracting economy
• Significantly reduced care facilities - few care workers available, families forced to look after elderly relatives, carer's allowance significantly reduced

Sounds like a Ponzi scheme to me requiring ever expanding population.

I thought we were all so proud of the British Empire? This is a natural consequence of conquering half the world. Or is anyone a bit unhappy about all these immigrants?

No, not all people who want zero
immigration are racists.
However, all racists seemingly want zero immigration.
To want one is to associate with the other, and will be used, by those with whom you may not wish to be associated, to make a point with which you may not agree.

In short, be careful with whom you’re agreeing. And zero immigration is bullshit.

Or we could stop expecting nurses to pay for their training and qualify thousands of pounds in debt. We could also not treat them like shit and pay them awfully when they do qualify! We could also sort out the massive bullying culture within the NHS 🤷‍♀️

It's still not sustainable to have an exponentially increasing population. We need to make tough decisions and live sustainably that means not increasing our population through immigration.

Bonk for Britain !

And all wokies like immigration. Perhaps those mumsnetters concerned about modern wokeness around be kind and tw need to look at who they associate with.

Or just not increase population at all. Every mouth uses resources. Currently we aren't food or energy self sufficient ourselves.

What is a wokie? Is it a misspelled Star Wars character?

Also, everyone is an immigrant, by descent. A world with no boundaries should be the dream. Unite, not divide.

Those who demand a zero-immigration policy can be very adept at name-calling.

Logical, coherent policies are an entirely different matter.

The nation state is the entity which guarantees rule of law, governance, taxation, policing and the infrastructure which makes civilised life possible. The reason so many flee their own countries to live in more prosperous Western nations is precisely because their own states have failed and other states offer them a better life. That's evidence right there that countries matter.

The nation state is not without its flaws, but can you think of a better way to ensure good governance and management of resources?

No I didn't miss the brexit campaign- as a community worker my job is directly under threat as a result of the brexit campaign and most charities in my sector are now running into reserves which will undoubtedly have knock on impact on housing/ health and education provision. But big thanks to the powers that be for "protecting" my job from the immigrants.... the campaign would have been laughable if it wasn't so goddam depressing how many people bought unreliable statistics and financial estimations.

Race plays a huge part in conversations about immigration - it's not just the UK it happens in most white majority countries. I get the 'we don't mean you' comments if I remind people in the USA complaining about immigrants that I am one.

But it's such a complex issue 'immigrants' is too broad a term for the reason people come and the reason we need them to come.

• filling key employment needs - this is always changing and needs good government oversight and policies to keep a good balance and get the right people to the right areas at the right time
• economic migrants - people with skills who want to come to the UK for their own economic reasons - they overlap with the category above, and there's room for people with specialist skill and generalist skill to contribute and make life better for the country as well as themselves
• family reunification - UK citizens who marry someone from another country - are zero immigration advocates saying you can never fall in love with a non British person and have them come and live with you? We are already much more restricted on how other family members can come to the UK compared to other countries who have more pathways for sibilings etc
• refugees/asylum seekers - we have global responsibilities to help in times of crisis, and humanitarian responsibilies to help people in need. This is the category which I think causes the most problems in terms of public perception. And that's possibly because it's been so badly managed by governments. But also the nature of a crisis means big visible groups of people in need - whereas we don't notice the quiet entry of the economic migrants.

the campaign would have been laughable if it wasn't so goddam depressing how many people bought unreliable statistics and financial estimations.
Agreed, on both sides.

Too many old white people, are you for real ? As an over 60 person with 40 years working in healthcare, I think your comment is ageist. I’ve given plenty to this country and it will soon be time for me to take back a little of what I’ve paid in tax & NI during that time. Stupid comment!

In general yes, people opposed to immigration are normally racist.

Including lots of people who say that they definitely aren't racist.

Actually aging populations is a really serious issue for many countries across the world, it needs to be talked about and planned for. The poster above wasn't the most tactful, but it named the challenge. I think immigration alone won't be enough, I think some sort of automation to care for people needs developing as well.

. In the 1960s and 1970s, the country underwent vast social change. The death penalty was scrapped. The university system was opened up. Abortion was legalized and homosexual men were finally given some dignity. Later on, women secured rights for equal pay. The Church of England crumbled as a source of authority. Corporal punishment ended in schools.

All of that in my view was a very good thing. It meant ordinary people could, with support of the state, build better lives for their children. They did not have to be very rich. They had good healthcare and resources. They did not have to cringe in front of priests or adhere to Christian morality . And this process was to a greater or lesser extent across Western Europe.

At the same time, we also had migration from countries where religion still had great power, women were considered second class citizens, homosexuality met with the death penalty , and with social attitudes that the UK had left behind. I think there was some sort of belief that people would just fit in and get those attitudes. There has been mixed success on that.

Now the UK will have a different sort of migration. The two biggest nationalities entering the UK now are Indian and China. What attitudes do they bring?

No, it's government failure to invest in infrastructure for a growing population that has these negative outcomes, not migration. Migrants are usually economically more active than the home population and migration provides a net financial benefit to the UK.
This is the economic reality, it's not migrants fault that the government haven't invested the £ they generated into services. Tbh, your reasoning is often used by racists, has no basis in fact and I'm pretty fed up of hearing it. Migration is a fundamental human impulse and the basis of the story of humankind.

Also, everyone is an immigrant, by descent. A world with no boundaries should be the dream. Unite, not divide

You need a world with boundaries. Instead of endlessly fighting over everything from economic resources to women’s rights, we instead decide to allow countries to do pretty much as they please within their own borders. It is a more peaceful world this way.

The world is actually far more diverse than you think—and someone who thinks borders should disappear really has not experienced enough of it

I think you are conveniently ignoring the social and religious norms of some of the Eastern European nations who formed significant parts of the large scale immigration from the EU. If your argument is that we shouldn't import people from countries where, for example same-sex marriage is forbidden by the constitution and confirmed by referendum, then that would apply to places where significant numbers of EU citizens who came here originated - see also attitudes to abortion. You seem to be saying all europeans share the same liberal views which is plainly not the case.

I don't say that - and of course, I was careful to say Western Europe.

However, whatever antediluvian attitudes some Eastern Europeans may have brought after joining the EU and then brought to the UK, that was temporary, was it not? They retained their nationalities and returned in most cases. Why? Because that was the legal agreement in place. That has been the story after Brexit. They have left.

My point was that this was not what happened for migration in the 1960s and 1970s. We are doing the same now. We will offer migration routes to countries with economic differences and social attitudes which are very different. Is that a good idea?

What you want to ask yourself is why no Tory government, despite saying they will, actually changes it.

The truth is they are fine with it. If a government doesn't bother changing it for 12 years then it is because it suits them: expect migration up, not down.