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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think Ukrainian families may just have to..

329 replies

FindingMyself1999 · 13/10/2022 22:15

Go back? bbc article

such a sad situation but we barely have enough housing or school places as it is. Unless the hosts can act as guarantors? That’s a possibility ?

the government really hasn’t thought through the aftermath of the hosting scheme.

OP posts:
MumEeeee · 14/10/2022 14:30

WahineToa · 14/10/2022 14:15

@oakleaffy yes, thank you. Half the Maori population was wiped out with diseases brought by the Europeans. That’s a lot. We lost a lot and you can’t comprehend what that does to a group of people, and their future generations. People shrug their shoulders and say it was ages ago. Not to me. That’s my grandparent. The first Lady to sing the national anthem with a verse in Maori publicly, at the rugby, was in the 90’s and she was horrifically bullied and torn apart for it. She is an old woman now and still cries thinking of how proud she was and how she thought people would love it. People here complain about helping others during a war & them getting a school place above you. But imagine not being allowed to sing your anthem in English? Or actually being forced to sing an anthem about your coloniser that has nothing to do with your culture at all, in your colonisers language. I think we should help Ukraine as a matter of human decency, and so something like that doesn’t happen to them. Britain today wants to help people maintain their rights to and in their own countries. That’s something we can say the UK has learnt from its history. Understanding it’s wrong to remove people from their own lands, or to take it over, like Russia want to do. To the point we will step in and help countries experiencing that. I don’t think the UK get enough credit for that kind of progression, even if some of their own people don’t know enough to appreciate it or feel any empathy for the atrocities in their own past.

I think the UK education system plays a part in the lack of empathy, along with the news reporting.

I doubt the reporting or education about the Māori people is really adequate to develop any depth of feeling. Is it on a curriculum here? How is it covered in News? Sanitised and a bit more palatable?

For example I’ve seen news about the Russian occupation recently.

Its not THAT scary to imagine living under a different ruler, a change of language maybe and curriculum. Borders more right?
When you point out to most people that becoming suddenly Russian for a man means conscription into the Russian army to fight Ukraine it’s more shocking. Or that your child may be evacuated as a Russian citizen to a ‘place of safety’ elsewhere in your new country, never to see or hear from you again it’s more shocking. When you point out you are cut off from your countries food supplies with no replacements it’s scary, or that you may be rehoused a thousand miles away from everyone you know.

I won’t change minds so much, just I think it’s the reason for a broader lack of connection with the past or the world for many. The News doesn’t point out impacts of a lifestyle at all mostly, it’s all distanced. For example, wearing clothes from a sweatshop is too remote- nothing they personally created. Just something created through their shopping habits and demands indirectly.

Kendodd · 14/10/2022 14:36

RedToothBrush · 14/10/2022 14:05

"I also have to have the heating at a minimum of 25c because the Ukrainian has a school child."

Erm no. You really don't. No is a complete sentence. You don't negotiate. You tell your guest what temperature is set at as your the one bloody paying for it.

No One needs their heating at 25C.

The heating IS NOT going to be that high. My guest can complain to the council all she likes. As I said council woman's job was quickly recruited and I think the only qualification needed is being Ukrainian. Things she has told me are just plain wrong, such as - Ukrainian guest are not allowed to contribute towards food or bills. Apparently 25 - 27c is indoor temperature in Ukraine and that's what they expect here.

There is a lot of complaint online amongst hosts about how much guests are costing them. In many cases guests have a lot more money than hosts and yet hosts are expected to pay for everything. An example is the two £350 cost of living payments from gov. Ukrainians will get all of this, while having no bills to pay, hosts will get nothing and be expected to pick up the higher bills.

BewareTheLibrarians · 14/10/2022 15:28

@IndiGlowie Thats exactly my point. If they’re in the bookies regularly, they’re probably not asylum seekers and are either refugees (who, unlike asylum seekers, are able to work and earn a living) or legal migrants who just happen to be brown, therefore the brunt of previous posters’ judgement. I seriously doubt that any of those posters walk up to the men and asks their immigration status. Even saying “they live in a hostel” isn’t an accurate guide to immigration status. So how on earth do they know? (They don’t.)

WahineToa · 14/10/2022 15:40

An example is the two £350 cost of living payments from gov. Ukrainians will get all of this, while having no bills to pay, hosts will get nothing and be expected to pick up the higher bills.

No. this isn’t how it works. The £350 pAyments are paid to the host.

LaurelGrove · 14/10/2022 16:02

Wahine, I think Ken is talking about the two cost of living payments that were (or will be) made to anyone claiming Universal Credit. The first was paid earlier this year and the second is due around now. This is completely different to the host thank you payments. The issue has caused a lot of distress for some hosts who are facing massive energy bill rises as a result of the spike in energy costs and significantly higher use, while guests on UC are being given money to cover rising utility bills even though they have no outgoings apart from food, in most cases. They are often much better off than hosts with benefit payments and no rent and minimal or no bills.

WahineToa · 14/10/2022 16:05

They are often much better off than hosts with benefit payments and no rent and minimal or no bills.

it’s not much money to start a new life in a new country during a cost of living crisis with increased rent costs to think about. When they move they will incur the increases.

LaurelGrove · 14/10/2022 16:27

As will all the families already incurring those costs right now and in the future. I fully agree it will be tough for them. My point was that six months of no rent, no bills and (often) lots of other things paid for by hosts, charities or local authorities means that many (not all) Ukrainians are a lot better off right now than many (not all) of their hosts. I agree they will need the money when they leave but I do not think that making cost of living payments to those still living with hosts was the right thing to do.

Kendodd · 14/10/2022 16:34

LaurelGrove · 14/10/2022 16:27

As will all the families already incurring those costs right now and in the future. I fully agree it will be tough for them. My point was that six months of no rent, no bills and (often) lots of other things paid for by hosts, charities or local authorities means that many (not all) Ukrainians are a lot better off right now than many (not all) of their hosts. I agree they will need the money when they leave but I do not think that making cost of living payments to those still living with hosts was the right thing to do.

My guest has saved nothing. She spends so much money on crap (I think she could afford to do this in Ukraine and hasn't changed her lifestyle on this). She then complains about have no money to send to Ukraine but refuses point blank, to take jobs she's been offered because they're not the sort of work she does.

oakleaffy · 14/10/2022 18:01

Good points.

WahineToa · 14/10/2022 18:04

These people have fled from war. They’ve lost their men, their homes, their stability, pets and more. So maybe they aren’t in the right frame of mind to make perfect decisions.

oakleaffy · 14/10/2022 18:38

WahineToa · 14/10/2022 14:15

@oakleaffy yes, thank you. Half the Maori population was wiped out with diseases brought by the Europeans. That’s a lot. We lost a lot and you can’t comprehend what that does to a group of people, and their future generations. People shrug their shoulders and say it was ages ago. Not to me. That’s my grandparent. The first Lady to sing the national anthem with a verse in Maori publicly, at the rugby, was in the 90’s and she was horrifically bullied and torn apart for it. She is an old woman now and still cries thinking of how proud she was and how she thought people would love it. People here complain about helping others during a war & them getting a school place above you. But imagine not being allowed to sing your anthem in English? Or actually being forced to sing an anthem about your coloniser that has nothing to do with your culture at all, in your colonisers language. I think we should help Ukraine as a matter of human decency, and so something like that doesn’t happen to them. Britain today wants to help people maintain their rights to and in their own countries. That’s something we can say the UK has learnt from its history. Understanding it’s wrong to remove people from their own lands, or to take it over, like Russia want to do. To the point we will step in and help countries experiencing that. I don’t think the UK get enough credit for that kind of progression, even if some of their own people don’t know enough to appreciate it or feel any empathy for the atrocities in their own past.

That’s so poignant about your Grandmother.

Those who bullied her are despicable.
Maybe the colonisers felt threatened in some way, by her “dissenting” voice?
One lone voice in a Language they likely couldn’t understand, threatened so many?

I hope UK Govt has learned from past mistakes, but time will tell.
The govt are happy to be sending weapons over that kill and maim , but are not so willing to help house Ukrainians, it seems, relying instead on generous UK citizens to help out if they have space and energy to help out a family in peril.

WahineToa · 14/10/2022 19:04

@oakleaffy government money is our money either way, this way I guess they’re hoping those with more will share more. But it’s probably not the wealthiest in the country helping the refugees is it.

TurmericFan · 14/10/2022 19:18

This Facebook page of the Ukrainian security service makes for interesting reading. There are often posts about raids on the criminal gangs who smuggle fighting-age men out of Ukraine:

www.facebook.com/SecurSerUkraine/posts/pfbid0KcaDuVdBPcce1KxFiHe8fgQQD4NysfbF9QxFETzJw9t2jM7qxmx1zogiqrKsEk8ql

No doubt some of the people who pay for their services will be looking for hosts in the UK. But of course, if you think they deserve your hospitality, that's down to you!

DonnaBanana · 14/10/2022 19:24

I imagine that will ruffle feathers-if it goes ahead-from home grown people

”home grown people” 😂

BoredZelda · 14/10/2022 20:02

The housing crisis, school places etc you mention are not the fault of refugees. The government could at least try to solve the housing crisis, properly fund schools to have enough places, and more, but they choose not to.

They are also not the fault of immigration. My area of Scotland is well below the national average in terms of the number of non British migrants and refugees who live here. We still have an increasing population as people have discovered we're in commuting distance of a couple of cities which are expensive to live in. You get more house for your money here so people are moving. We have the same issue with lack of school places, all our schools are full. Doctored and dentists are difficult to get appointments for etc. The problem is a lack of funding to services, a lack of affordable housing in cities, a lack of planning etc. Nothing to do with immigration.

BoredZelda · 14/10/2022 20:06

No, Clare, your job is not "done" as you put it. The war is still going on and may well go on for many years. This was obviously a risk even when this scheme began.

@Dotjones this was the same Clare who 6 months ago was gushing to the BBC how glad she was they had come to her and how she was looking forward to having them etc.

The thing I asked myself when considering whether we could take a family in was "what happens after 6 months" We decided we couldn't do it for longer than that so we chose not to.

MyrtlethePurpleTurtle · 14/10/2022 20:23

TurmericFan · 14/10/2022 19:18

This Facebook page of the Ukrainian security service makes for interesting reading. There are often posts about raids on the criminal gangs who smuggle fighting-age men out of Ukraine:

www.facebook.com/SecurSerUkraine/posts/pfbid0KcaDuVdBPcce1KxFiHe8fgQQD4NysfbF9QxFETzJw9t2jM7qxmx1zogiqrKsEk8ql

No doubt some of the people who pay for their services will be looking for hosts in the UK. But of course, if you think they deserve your hospitality, that's down to you!

Refugees?!

UkrainiansHost · 14/10/2022 20:40

@BoredZelda - what a spiteful thing to say!!

LiveInSunshine · 14/10/2022 20:45

I support the fact that no one should be forced to fight against their will or bear arms. Frankly I’d not be offering my own children up as cannon fodder out of duty to the nation. I’d deal with the consequences of that.

LetsPlayShadowlands · 14/10/2022 22:23

I know someone who got their Ukrainian family visas and brought them over. Few weeks later they chose to go back. Now they have visas for 3 years and can come and go as they please. Oh and one is on the NHS waiting list for a procedure. But voluntarily still living in Ukraine. Convenient.

whatkatydid2013 · 14/10/2022 22:33

To those on this thread asking "what did you expect":

I expected that our guests (both young, single & with a reasonable grasp of English) would be able to find work by this point (5 months in). One has taken a job in Ukraine working remotely, which has some complications and the other is doing some work on commission from Ukraine. Both have applied to things here too and one got atrial shift with Aldi on Monday so very much hoping that will come to something. They are finding it difficult as while there are loads of places looking for staff many are more struggling to recruit for roles where they need experience but have an abundance of
applicants for entry level jobs. I was taking to the local corner shop owner and he said 100 people applied for a 25 hour a week role to work there (mainly on till with some stock keeping). I think they probably could get care work. I don’t blame them for wanting to try and find something else but I’m worried if they don’t find uk based work soon renting next year will be impossible.

I expected by this point there would have been an announcement that the £350 per month payments would extend past a year so if you were happy to host longer you could continue to while still getting funding for extra utility/household costs. For us switching to renting the room becomes a bit of a pain as it’s not really big enough for 2 under rules. Idea 6 of us are overcrowded in our massive terrace seems laughable but it becomes a complication if we wanted to rent to our guests.

I expected the £350 would comfortably cover extra outgoings for most hosts & didn’t expect the massive increase in energy costs or spike in inflation. With the higher prices the extra usage from showers/baths, cooking, heating on in the day etc will be significant. We are using about 40% more energy. That is £50 a month on our fixed rate (which we have till April) but will be £140 on the new price cap with the house at our usual 19C. Our water cost is also up significantly. Shared staples like loo roll, washing powder, basic foods etc we budgeted for out of that money but it’s costing more than expected and while we could ask for a contribution I’ve instead just stopped getting as many extras.

I expected our guests to be a little bit more comfortable sharing space with us after 5 months. They are polite, pleasant women who always clear up after themselves and are very willing to play with the kids but they are nervous around my husband, which is hard for him even though he appreciates it isn’t personal. It’s good in sense we have our own space but it’s hard that I feel months on like I live with people I know very little about and yet who I’ve seen through some really tough times.

I expected to be able to find somewhere affordable for them to rent. I knew about need for a deposit but also knew our council offered help with it. I knew rents in the area were reasonable (a 2 bed flat is £500-700 per month as a private rental) but I didn’t realise you were expected to earn such a huge multiplier of the rent. I think we will manage regardless as know a lot of landlords and some of them who are willing to look at offering shorter term contracts with the uncertainty about when they will be able to go home but they need to get work sorted out first.

All in all it’s been a decent first 6 months. I keep thinking it’s a shame similar offers aren’t available to others in difficult circumstances whether they are other refugees or people who are escaping domestic abuse or leaving care etc. Once we manage to get our ladies set up independently we will likely do something similar again but we will have a break first.

bringincrazyback · 14/10/2022 23:09

HikingforScenery · 14/10/2022 11:17

At what point do numerous horrible experiences qualify as “generally”. There must be a point, surely.

It's not really about the number of bad experiences. I'm saying people shouldn't assume their own bad experiences (or those of someone they know or have heard of) mean that the whole scheme is bad or unworkable.

BoredZelda · 14/10/2022 23:56

@UkrainiansHost, which bit? Nothing spiteful, just facts.

BoredZelda · 15/10/2022 00:02

At what point do numerous horrible experiences qualify as “generally”. There must be a point, surely.

Certainly beyond the 50% mark. 38k arrivals under the family scheme visa. That's at least 19k horrible experiences before you can say "generally"

IndiGlowie · 15/10/2022 09:52

MoleAtTheCounter · 14/10/2022 11:17

We are hosting a young couple with a baby. The dad is a software developer and has landed a good WFM job that pays £55k and only takes a few hours of work each day; this is more than my DP and I earn together. They could afford to move out and rent a property (we are in a low-cost area) but they prefer to send money to their families.

They are just taking the P . They can afford to be self sufficient on a salary like that .

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