Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think WTAF at ‘Bonk for Britain?’

334 replies

Upthebracket22 · 09/10/2022 17:58

Anyone seen this? It’s apparently based on a policy from (far right) Hungary where the media were saying that too many women were going to university and thus wouldn’t be having kids!

www.thesun.co.uk/news/20048496/women-tax-cuts-have-children/amp/

OP posts:
whumpthereitis · 10/10/2022 17:19

beastlyslumber · 10/10/2022 16:43

I don't understand how it's "fascism" to say we should have more babies and explore ways of incentivising family life.

I think it demonstrates how sheltered and privileged women's lives are that they imagine getting a tax break as "fascism". Maybe expand your horizons a bit.

Instead of expanding horizons, perhaps you should focus your eyes. I said that the state dictating to women what their purpose is, in this case vessels for breeding, is fascist. That is quite distinct from the state supporting women who want to reproduce.

I called the former fascist because it is a core tenet of fascist ideology. I pointed you to examples of it being practiced. It didn’t turn out great, by the way.

whumpthereitis · 10/10/2022 17:21

beastlyslumber · 10/10/2022 15:54

It’s not for anyone to decide for a woman that her point in life is to mindlessly breed.

Also, this is really insulting. Mothers are not "mindlessly breeding". How fucking rude.

You drew the parallel with other animals, who breed on instinct. Aka, they breed mindlessly (well, they don’t, but for the purpose of this discussion let’s imagine they do). You seemed to think this to be something humans should practice, despite our ability to reason that it may not indeed be beneficial.

TheMarzipanDildo · 10/10/2022 17:22

Doesn’t sound very good for the environment.

onmywayamarillo · 10/10/2022 17:22

The sun and its views can do one!
And the far right, and all of women haters! What is going on in the world m!? Honestly it needs to stop

FatKyle · 10/10/2022 17:25

Leypt1 · 10/10/2022 17:00

This policy is based on the deeply racist idea of the "great replacement", the idea that whites are all being strategically replaced by browns. It's a far-right conspiracy theory and shouldn't be the basis for tax incentives. It was, however, the basis for the mass shootings in Christchurch (2019) and Buffalo (this year).

Whatever the reasons behind it, white people in the UK will become a minority. That part isnt a conspiracy. Nor is it racist to point it out.

Notlabeled · 10/10/2022 17:26

No wonder populations are falling given how many seem to think the very idea of procreation is a fascist ideal.

I hope none of you have children, you must hate their existence.

TheMarzipanDildo · 10/10/2022 17:26

I had to read a feminist newspaper from 1911 as part of my degree, and a big debate in that was whether or not motherhood should be state endowed. The general consensus was that it would be just another way of controlling women and keeping them in the home.

FatKyle · 10/10/2022 17:27

Ilovemycatalot · 10/10/2022 16:40

@FatKyle and you have a personal issue with that?

With what?

Ilovemycatalot · 10/10/2022 17:28

Your comment about women working minimum hours for maximum benefits

FatKyle · 10/10/2022 17:29

Notlabeled · 10/10/2022 17:26

No wonder populations are falling given how many seem to think the very idea of procreation is a fascist ideal.

I hope none of you have children, you must hate their existence.

I hope my children don't have to look after them. Unfortunately these people will need other people's children in their old age.

JesusMaryAndJosephAndTheWeeDon · 10/10/2022 17:30

eltonjohnsglasses · 10/10/2022 16:52

f we genuinely don't have people to do essential work then importing it from places with growing populations makes more sense from an ecological and economic perspective that breeding our own

But your not suggesting we pluck them from their own counties are you, they will need to be incentivised to come. So why come here when their own country may be booming or when Germany or Ireland looks more attractive?

Personally I think the days of expecting migrants to provide cheap labour are coming to an end.

Well if we aren't paying well enough or offering good enough standards of living for people to come then we will need to improve the offering. It will still be overall better than incentivising women to have more children, because it doesn't have a 20 year lead time and we don't have to provide years of education and healthcare to those children.

I'm not suggesting migrants come to provide cheap labour, just that migrants can plug a labour gap more efficiently and with less detriment to the environment than increasing the birth rate.

LiveintheNow · 10/10/2022 17:32

beastlyslumber · 10/10/2022 16:43

I don't understand how it's "fascism" to say we should have more babies and explore ways of incentivising family life.

I think it demonstrates how sheltered and privileged women's lives are that they imagine getting a tax break as "fascism". Maybe expand your horizons a bit.

Know your history, it really was fascism

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinder,_Küche,_Kirche

Kinder, Küche, Kirche (German pronunciation: [ˈkɪndɐ ˈkʏçə ˈkɪʁçə]), or the 3 Ks, is a German slogan translated as "children, kitchen, church" used under the German Empire to describe a woman's role in society. It now has a mostly derogatory connotation, describing what is seen as an antiquated female role model in contemporary Western society.[1][2] The phrase is vaguely equivalent to the American "barefoot and pregnant",[3] the British Victorian era "A woman's place is in the home"citation neededd^] or the phrase "Good Wife, Wise Mother" from Meiji Japan.[4][5]

The Third Reich made women and mothers a priority in their political rhetoric. Many women supported the National Socialist Party because it urged returning to the family values of the past when women were encouraged to stay at home and concern themselves with taking care of the household.[14] Barbara Kosta argues that, to some, the modern woman of the Weimar Republic was viewed as an insult to previous conceptions of Germanic motherhood, and womanhood in general.[15]
When Adolf Hitler was appointed Chancellor in 1933, he introduced a Law for the Encouragement of Marriage, which entitled newly married couples to a loan of 1000 marks (around 9 months' average wages at that time). On their first child, they could keep 250 marks. On their second, they could keep another 250. They reclaimed all of the loan by their fourth child.
In a September 1934 speech to the National Socialist Women's Organization, Hitler argued that for the German woman her "world is her husband, her family, her children, and her home",[16] a policy which was reinforced by the stress on "Kinder" and "Küche" in propaganda, and the bestowing of the Cross of Honor of the German Mother on women bearing four or more babies.
During this period, women were discriminated against in employment and forced out or bribed with numerous social benefits. Medicine, the law and civil service were occupations reserved for men alone.[17]
In one of his essays, T. S. Eliot reproduces and then comments upon a column in the Evening Standardd^ of May 10, 1939 headed "'Back to the Kitchen' Creed Denounced":
Miss Bower of the Ministry of Transport, who moved that the association should take steps to obtain the removal of the ban (i.e. against married women Civil Servants) said it was wise to abolish an institution which embodied one of the main tenets of the Nazi creed – the relegation of women to the sphere of the kitchen, the children and the church. The report, by its abbreviation, may do less than justice to Miss Bower, but I do not think that I am unfair to the report, in finding the implication that what is Nazi is wrong, and need not be discussed on its own merits. Incidentally, the term "relegation of women" prejudices the issue. Might one suggest that the kitchen, the children and the church could be considered to have a claim upon the attention of married women? or that no normal married woman would prefer to be a wage-earner if she could help it? What is miserable is a system that makes the dual wage necessary.[18]
During World War II in Germany, women eventually were put back in the factories because of the growing losses in the armed forces and the desperate lack of equipment on the front lines.

beastlyslumber · 10/10/2022 17:38

I said that the state dictating to women what their purpose is, in this case vessels for breeding, is fascist.

But that's not what's happening!

beastlyslumber · 10/10/2022 17:40

whumpthereitis · 10/10/2022 17:21

You drew the parallel with other animals, who breed on instinct. Aka, they breed mindlessly (well, they don’t, but for the purpose of this discussion let’s imagine they do). You seemed to think this to be something humans should practice, despite our ability to reason that it may not indeed be beneficial.

Erm, no. I pointed out that reproduction is our evolutionary purpose.

It was someone else who said that they weren't going to 'mindlessly breed' like other women did. I quoted the part I was responding to.

beastlyslumber · 10/10/2022 17:42

Know your history, it really was fascism

Oh come on. We're not living in Nazi Germany. No one is telling women that their place is in the home.

There's ZERO connection between a Nazi slogan and this proposal.

Hitler was a vegetarian, too. Does that mean vegetarians are fascists?

Notlabeled · 10/10/2022 17:45

LiveintheNow · 10/10/2022 17:32

Know your history, it really was fascism

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinder,_Küche,_Kirche

Kinder, Küche, Kirche (German pronunciation: [ˈkɪndɐ ˈkʏçə ˈkɪʁçə]), or the 3 Ks, is a German slogan translated as "children, kitchen, church" used under the German Empire to describe a woman's role in society. It now has a mostly derogatory connotation, describing what is seen as an antiquated female role model in contemporary Western society.[1][2] The phrase is vaguely equivalent to the American "barefoot and pregnant",[3] the British Victorian era "A woman's place is in the home"citation neededd^] or the phrase "Good Wife, Wise Mother" from Meiji Japan.[4][5]

The Third Reich made women and mothers a priority in their political rhetoric. Many women supported the National Socialist Party because it urged returning to the family values of the past when women were encouraged to stay at home and concern themselves with taking care of the household.[14] Barbara Kosta argues that, to some, the modern woman of the Weimar Republic was viewed as an insult to previous conceptions of Germanic motherhood, and womanhood in general.[15]
When Adolf Hitler was appointed Chancellor in 1933, he introduced a Law for the Encouragement of Marriage, which entitled newly married couples to a loan of 1000 marks (around 9 months' average wages at that time). On their first child, they could keep 250 marks. On their second, they could keep another 250. They reclaimed all of the loan by their fourth child.
In a September 1934 speech to the National Socialist Women's Organization, Hitler argued that for the German woman her "world is her husband, her family, her children, and her home",[16] a policy which was reinforced by the stress on "Kinder" and "Küche" in propaganda, and the bestowing of the Cross of Honor of the German Mother on women bearing four or more babies.
During this period, women were discriminated against in employment and forced out or bribed with numerous social benefits. Medicine, the law and civil service were occupations reserved for men alone.[17]
In one of his essays, T. S. Eliot reproduces and then comments upon a column in the Evening Standardd^ of May 10, 1939 headed "'Back to the Kitchen' Creed Denounced":
Miss Bower of the Ministry of Transport, who moved that the association should take steps to obtain the removal of the ban (i.e. against married women Civil Servants) said it was wise to abolish an institution which embodied one of the main tenets of the Nazi creed – the relegation of women to the sphere of the kitchen, the children and the church. The report, by its abbreviation, may do less than justice to Miss Bower, but I do not think that I am unfair to the report, in finding the implication that what is Nazi is wrong, and need not be discussed on its own merits. Incidentally, the term "relegation of women" prejudices the issue. Might one suggest that the kitchen, the children and the church could be considered to have a claim upon the attention of married women? or that no normal married woman would prefer to be a wage-earner if she could help it? What is miserable is a system that makes the dual wage necessary.[18]
During World War II in Germany, women eventually were put back in the factories because of the growing losses in the armed forces and the desperate lack of equipment on the front lines.

Adolf Hitler was not creating shit back of the fag packet policy ideas to stave off population and economic collapse in the 21st century.

Falling birth rates are a real problem, and people really should do some reading about the state of demographics across the world, the truth is not what the eco loons would have you believe.

Eventually, lower populations will be better for everyone, but the problem is how we get from here (10 odd billion) to there (3 or 4 billion).

How you pay, and care for, the excess 7 billion old folks until they die is going to be a massive problem when you only have a fraction of the global population being economically active, and you have to do that while keeping the lights on, and food supplied.

This is not fascism.

beastlyslumber · 10/10/2022 17:45

Also "know your history" says someone who then proceeds to copy and paste from Wikipedia!

So is the child benefit 'fascist' as well then? How about tax credits? Or maybe Sainsbury's are tiptoeing into Nazi waters when they do vouchers for schools?

Anonymouseposter · 10/10/2022 17:48

Do you think the native population should be replaced by immigration?

Well, I find it strange that on the one hand they are bemoaning that there aren't going to be enough working young people but then say that we're a tiny island with no room for immigration.
I really can't see overall why we want to encourage more people to be born when there are already hungry and deprived people in the world.
So, TBH, I don't have the same problem with that that you seem to.

MistressoftheDarkSide · 10/10/2022 17:59

Can’t believe this conversation is even being had at this point in history….. 🙄

Some women want children, some don’t, some want to work as well, some don’t.

If the state wants the population to balance out, try creating an economy that supports those choices for heavens sake.

Or is this back door “selective” incentivising?

Society should be organised to support everyone at a basic level to fulfill their personal potential and lay off tinkering with what is natural for some and not for others because the higher powers are worrying about a smaller workforce and their profits dwindling.

We are sentient beings, not commodities or economic units.

I’m way too old to tolerate this shit and it no longer affects me as I’m no longer good breeding stock 🙄 but I can’t abide the psychological manipulation of the generations under me.

FatKyle · 10/10/2022 18:07

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

FatKyle · 10/10/2022 18:07

Ilovemycatalot · 10/10/2022 17:28

Your comment about women working minimum hours for maximum benefits

Is this what you do then?

YouSirNeighMmmm · 10/10/2022 18:08

Who would get pregnant and trust that for the next 20-40 years income tax policy will remain unchanged?

It is funny how they want middle class white people to breed, but less keen on the people breeding today to continue breeding in future.

FatKyle · 10/10/2022 18:10

Know your history, it really was fascism

So do you think the French are fascists then? For providing incentives for their population to have more children?

beastlyslumber · 10/10/2022 18:31

FatKyle · 10/10/2022 18:10

Know your history, it really was fascism

So do you think the French are fascists then? For providing incentives for their population to have more children?

They've got no clue what they're on about. I think it must just feel good to pretend to be the most oppressed victim ever.

Anonymouseposter · 10/10/2022 18:32

So yes, you're happy with the native population of the UK to be replaced. And so logically, to that end, they should stop breeding, to make room for others.

I didn't say that. People can make their own decisions about whether to have children. I am just pointing out that the people who say we need to be breeding more are often the same people who say that our "small island" is too overcrowded to accept incomers.

Swipe left for the next trending thread