To ask you to teach your boys that yes means yes

[HuzzahIndeed]

I know "no means no" comes from the right place but it implies that consent is always there and has to be removed.

That isn't true. Consent isn't the default position eg if a woman is too drunk to say no, then it doesn't mean she is saying yes.

So can I ask you to teach your boys that if it isn't an enthusiastic yes then they do not have consent and must stop.

I will be telling my girls that they must give consent, not remove it. Boys/men must be told the same.

I agree.

I think I am not as concerned with teaching girls not to sexually assault people because out of the 10+ incidents of sexual harassment, groping and assault I have experienced they have all been done by men? If I think of all my friends, all of whom have experienced multiple instances of sexual assault I can’t think of a single time when, in 40 years, a friend has told me that a woman grabbed her tit in a nightclub, or followed her at night, or exposed herself down an alley or forced herself on them. So while women do sometimes commit sexual assault it’s not something that I, or my many friends and female relatives have ever come across…
Anyway I have sons and I do talk about consent, especially about drunkenness and that they should never have sex with a girl who is very drunk even if she says yes, because she is impaired.

I'm not sure this discussion will ever be possible with my DS. He really, really hates hearing me talk about anything to do with relationships, sex or friendship issues such as bullying. He is only 12 so sex not a worry just now but I hope that by modelling positive, open, respectful behaviour at home he will grow up caring about other people's feelings.

My own mum tried to talk about sex with me and I just about turned myself inside out with cringe. I talk to friends etc about this stuff, not my parents.

‘Don’t listen for no, look for yes’ was a phrase I thought was helpful. ie there should be enthusiastic participation. If there isn’t, back off. A woman shouldn’t have to yell ‘NO’ to be heard. NT Men should be able to pick up signals of reluctance or discomfort without being told. Yes, they should. And they do. They’ve just been conditioned by a patriarchal world to place male pleasure over female discomfort, and they don’t have stop unless they woman is specific and firmly verbal. (Of course it can be, but men are completely capable of reading body language and softer signals in sexual situations, and there’s no reason they shouldn’t be heeded)

I go with the absence of my no does not mean yes.

'Look for a yes' unfortunately some people see what they want to see, or convince themselves that the woman looks as if she wants it as well

The problem is, yes doesnt always mean yes.
You can say yes and mean no. You can say yes because you're afraid to say no. You can say yes that means yes but the way it's said sounds like no.

These little slogans are catchy but pointless tbh.

Far better to have actual conversations about enthusiastic and informed consent. And not just about consent to sex.

I am a boy mum. I am also a childhood abuse, and intimate partner abuse survivor. My son has known since he was 2 that he needs to ask before he can hug someone, that it's respectful. He's also known since 2 that people should ask before they touch him and he has every right to say no, and that stop means stop immediately.
I ask before I hug him. If ever I'm tickling him and he stop, I stop. It really is that simple.

@SeemsSoUnfair

It has the SAME impact and whether perpetrator is male or female, they have still had intercourse with someone without their consent. Maybe it isn't the same crime in the eyes of the law, but it should be.

Why are you trying to downplay sexual assault on men?

Whilst I get your sentiment, I think it's a bit of a simplistic view on consent and respect.

I won't be sitting my boys down and telling them "yes means yes", unless they show me that they already misunderstand consent.

You don't teach through one-off conversations and statements. You teach through action and role models.

More important, to me is:

1. showing them a healthy relationship where their father respects me and I respect him.

2. challenging sexist /gender stereotypes. For example, mocking women in sports or senior positions. And showing encouragement and pride of successful women.

3. setting boundaries around general behaviour. It's not ok to hit unless in self defense. It's not to swear at people. It's not ok to be rude or hurtful. We must say please and thank you etc.

This is where a lot of parents go wrong these days I think. Manners and boundaries aren't valued. Immediate happiness it put above long-term expectations/lessons.

If you raise your child well, in a fair and happy environment, they'll be less likely to want to abuse a woman

“Yes means yes” is absolutely terrible!

It implies to boys (and girls) that if someone says “yes” to something then they have to go through with it?! After all, “yes means yes”.
Much like “no” means you cannot do whatever it is.

Couldn't be arsed looking it up tbh.

I am not.

You are incorrectly interpreting my words the same way you are incorrectly interpreting dictionary, criminal and legal wordings and achieving nothing. You have lost all credibility.

Women with only daughters need to stop seeing boys and men as the enemy.

I have never taught my sons that no means no and yes means yes because they already know. I mean, they’re autistic and don’t go out so obviously that makes a difference.

Also what if they’re both drunk and get a bit carried away? Is it rape because he didn’t ask and she didn’t say yes? Girls aren’t some sort of innocent, precious beings you know. I was one and I know what I was like.

@SeemsSoUnfair

Saying that it has a similar impact does downplay it, yes. Sexual assault is no less severe for men than it is for women.

The current legal system confuses people. Saying that men can't be raped makes some women think that it is ok to have intercourse with men without their consent because no one has mentioned that it is still sexual assault. It makes some men think that what has happened to them isn't sexual assault and therefore they don't come forwards.

It is the same heinous act, even if the law does have it written down differently. The law isn't always right.

I teach my kids not to have sex with anyone, make or female without consent. What is confusing about that?

This! Boy mum here, you do yours and I'll do mine without your input.

I’ll stick with no means no.

I’ve been in a coercive relationship when I’ve said yes because it was easier than saying no.

Is OP coming back with any more pearls of wisdom? Maybe a meme?

Yep. Stick to parenting your kid not mine. Focus on teaching your teen girls not to start vicious rumours and false accusations when a boy turns them down. That would be a start.

That explains all the attacks on women then. All that good, non improbable parenting.

*improvable

Ironically it is you that is actually downplaying sexual assault by incorrectly stating it should should be called rape. Sexual assault is a serious crime in its own right. The current legal definitions may confuse you, I have never heard anyone else confused by it, it will certainly confuse your children if you use your incorrect personal definitions.

Exactly! I hate this crap about women and girls being so precious and innocent. I come from a good line of Great males in my family and friends, dh and now ds. I don't need to treat them like predators.

I wonder what percentage of sexual encounters, which were wanted on both sides, were accompanied by an enthusiastic ‘yes’ from the woman.

Not sure I’ve ever vocally shouted ‘yes, yes’ to my DH and we’ve had sex thousands of times.

I agree re: the concept of an “enthusiastic yes” - again, the idea comes from the right place, but how many people would actually express consent in that way? Everyone is different.

Isn’t it more about respecting your partner and reading their body language and not relying on a simple phrase to guide you?

The legal definitions don't confuse me thank you very much). I never said that it should be called rape. I said that some women think that men can't be raped and men can't be sexually assaulted are the same thing, and then proceed to have intercourse with someone against their will. Because I see it happen so many times. People say men can't be raped but fail to mention that they can be sexually assaulted.

I never said that sexual assault isn't a serious crime. I've been sexually assaulted so believe me, I don't downplay that. All I'm saying is that more needs to be done to equalise male sexual assault involving intercourse and rape.

There has been multiple petitions in recent years to get the legal definition of rape changed. I don't know if that's the answer but I do think that we need a new term for it or more educational awareness that it works both ways.

Totally getting the same vibe from the "smug mum of girls" OP.