To ask you to teach your boys that yes means yes

[HuzzahIndeed]

I know "no means no" comes from the right place but it implies that consent is always there and has to be removed.

That isn't true. Consent isn't the default position eg if a woman is too drunk to say no, then it doesn't mean she is saying yes.

So can I ask you to teach your boys that if it isn't an enthusiastic yes then they do not have consent and must stop.

I will be telling my girls that they must give consent, not remove it. Boys/men must be told the same.

As the mum of a boy, I don’t see why this is getting anyones back up.

”If they’re not having fun, you need to stop” is an easy thing to tell a kid - and a good lesson for them to internalise at a young age.
My son is two and only tends to hear this when he’s trying to stroke the cat when the cat would rather not be stroked- but surely laying the foundations for empathy IS important in a world where clearly some men are lacking in it.

Yes means yes" has a lot of pitfalls.

Consent can be withdrawn, yes doesn't always stay yes.

Coercion or fear can lead to a yes, but it isn't a yes, as it wasn't freely given.

"Yes means yes" shifts the blame over to victims, if a predator continues after consent was withdrawn after initially being given, or they go beyond a persons boundaries.

"Yes means yes" is very dangerous.

I agree.

If someone says yes to wanting sex but then changes their mind, the perpetrator could claim that because the victim said yes they assume it was ok.

I do get what you’re saying though and it’s important to talk about consent and that someone who doesn’t consent may not actually say the word ‘no’.

There is still a percentage of females so "yes means yes" should apply to everyone .

This.

This. I think your thread is misguided OP.

I’ve been teaching my kids since they were toddlers that if someone else isn’t enjoying something they are doing to them then they have to stop. This applies to tickling and rough play when they are little as well as sex when they are older.

Teaching kids that ‘yes means yes’ is a terrible idea. Consent can be withdrawn at any point.

So an extremely drunken ‘yes’ means yes?

The ‘yes’ of a 13 yo is OK?

OP: consent, or absence of meaningful consent, comes in many forms and has to be understood properly. And as it happens, those of us who happen to have boys are equally capable of proper conversations .

The whole of society needs to be part of the conversation.

Beware being trite and patronising.

I don't think that "Yes means yes" is the right term but it is important to teach kids that just because someone hasn't said no doesn't mean that they have given consent. Same for if they say yes and then change their minds.

It is not just boys that need to learn this. Girls need to learn about consent too. After all, men can also be raped.

I have not taught my ds no means no, and certainly wont be teaching him yes means yes.

He had been taught if someone is not enthusiastically particpating, and that can potentially quickly change, to check they are ok. We have also discussed partners being under the influence of drink/drugs or in a vulnerable emotional state.

It is a much more complex topic than no or yes.

Whilst true, it's still just as important to teach girls the meaning of consent, and to approach it in a similar way you would with boys.

i.e. I think it's wrong to teach it to girls by saying "YOU have to say yes if someone tries to hug/ kiss YOU" and say to boys "If you want to hug/ kiss a girl you have to make sure THEY say yes"

That puts the girls on the back foot from the off and assumes a power dynamic. I think any difference in the way you teach it between boys and girls actually puts girls at a disadvantage.

When children are young (like under 10), they should all be taught about consent, in the same way, regardless of their sex.

Before the "victim blaming" trope gets trotted out in response to my last statement lets be aware that I am raising my sons to be decent men but since not everyone is able to, I'll be raising my daughter to be vigilant and to avoid obviously risky situations.

I think this is an important point.
The “tell your sons not to rape” message comes from the right place, but most people will be doing that anyway.
At the same time, none of us is in charge of raising all the sons out there and none of us can actually control how other people choose to raise their children (or what kind of adults these children become, no matter what they parents do).

He's only 8, but once DS is old enough I plan to explain to that people can say yes to sex for all sorts of reasons other than actually wanting to - fear, a desire to "keep up" with peers, hope that it'll lead to love/a relationship - so he should make sure that both of them really, really want to do it before proceeding. Basically, if it's not a case of "bloody well shag me now before I explode with lust", don't bother. I'd have saved myself from a lot of bad sex if I'd followed that rule.

For now, we stick with two basic rules - don't touch people when they don't want to be touched, and don't enter peoples private spaces without asking first, and respect it if they say no.

The same rules apply to DD, of course.

This is true OP, it does come across as if we have rocks in our head but just needed a quick Mumsnet post to see the light! It's patronising to think that we wouldn't be spending a lot of time thinking about this, too.

Also yes means yes is a danger. What if someone changed their mind? They've already said yes, and according to you, yes means yes. What if it is coercion? According to you, tough, because yes means yes. What if a yes for one sexual act is accepted as an assumed yes for other acts? I'm afraid your idea would cause even worse problems than we have now unless there is a lawyer present at every potential sexual encounter.

I taught my male dc that unless it's a definite yes, then its a no, and that their partner can change their mind at any time.

I taught my daughter that she has the right to say no, and sent her to a martial art teacher so she has some idea of how to physically reiterate a no. I also told her the same as the boys.

FruitPastilleNut · Today 08:27
I so hate this type of thread. Being the mum of a gasp girl doesn't give you some kind of magical insight into what other parents need to do.

How about focusing on your own parenting? There are plenty of awful people out there both male and female, just make sure your own girls don't turn into one of those.”

hear, hear. Patronising, OP.

At 13 my Ds was explicitly propositioned by a 15 yo girl, who sent him highly inappropriate pics.

I am not saying that sex and risk and consent is a level playing field for males and females, it isn’t, but cj sent us an issue in every single transaction, and needs to be understood as a principle in its own right. Between males, between females, between the sexes. If the principle isn’t understood it won’t be reliably put into practice in the full range of contexts.

This. Little sayings don’t get it done. Meaningful dialogue gets it done.

Only biological males can rape (cant believe I need to qualify that so much!)

Of course girls/women should also be aware of their partners body language and if they are not enthausastically particpating stop or it could become sexual assault.

By teaching it like this though, aren't you perpetuating inequality? (I am not judging/ saying you did it wrong at all, I'm just curious)

You taught your daughter that people would be trying to have sex with her and she would have to say no.

And you taught your son that he would want to have sex with people and if he does, he has to make sure they say yes.

Why did you teach them different things? Doesn't this mean they have had that message that they are different, and the girls are less powerful/ will have less control?

I think I would teach the girl the same as you taught the boy, assuming that she is the one in control - and she will be perfectly capable of reversing it if she's ever in a situation where she's not (as will the boy!)

@SeemsSoUnfair

Sexual assault can still have exactly the same effect on men as it does on women. And it should NOT be downplayed.

@tranquiltortoise
Reread the last sentence of my post.

Only biological males can rape (cant believe I need to qualify that so much!)

The point was that biological males can also be taped.

*raped

Assuming you name changed and are @mushypeasontoast

I know you said you told her the same as you told your son.

But you also sent her to martial arts lessons and told her she has the right to say no... which you didn't tell your son?

Doesn't that set up your daughter for worrying she is going to be attacked or powerless and is going to be the one who has to say no?

I know this is the way it is in reality, I'm not naive and wouldn't judge you like I said, it's pretty sensible really. But I just think it also reinforces that women are going to be victims, if you treat your son differently?

Like did you sit your son down and tell him he has the right to say no etc and make sure he can defend himself too?

I absolutely will not be teaching my son that because it has too many dangerous and negative connotations.

I'll be teaching him about consent, but I'll be using more than twee little phrases to explain it.