To ask you to teach your boys that yes means yes

[HuzzahIndeed]

I know "no means no" comes from the right place but it implies that consent is always there and has to be removed.

That isn't true. Consent isn't the default position eg if a woman is too drunk to say no, then it doesn't mean she is saying yes.

So can I ask you to teach your boys that if it isn't an enthusiastic yes then they do not have consent and must stop.

I will be telling my girls that they must give consent, not remove it. Boys/men must be told the same.

If it helps, OP, I teach PSHE to year 9 and consent is something we look at in detail. We do discuss the signals/clues that someone might be giving off that contradict ‘yes’ and it is made very clear that if someone says yes, it can be because they fear the consequences of saying no. Boys are shocked to hear that yes with body language that pulls away or is less than enthusiastic May still be considered rape. And I have yet to encounter a boy that didn’t take this seriously in the classroom. I obviously can’t speak for all schools but we do try hard to cover the grey areas because it’s the grey areas that are the most problematic for all concerned.

I am, bollocks. I also sent the boys to martial arts classes, they had the same teacher.

The teachers are aware that girls sometimes need more support in being assertive so work on this.

Never said or even implied sexual assault wasnt damaging. I was correcting your factually incorrect statement that a girl could rape a boy. If you cant get the basic facts right how can you possibly have an informed and credible discussion with your child without confusing the issue for them,

My children are grown up now but I preferred to have actual conversations with both my son and my daughter rather than throwing around soundbites.

Yes they can, but only by other biological men. The context of the previous post was around girls learning consent,

"Girls need to learn about consent too. After all, men can also be raped.".

@Givenuptotally

Its nice to know this sort of thing is being covered in schools. Would you say that generally more empathetic boys are more likely to already be aware of body language or is it just a blanket thing that boys seem to be less aware of it? As a teacher is there anything you find yourself thinking “I really wish your parent had told you [x]”

:)

I think the way to a more equal society is to teach our children/ young people as we would if it was already that way. So to try not to project our own issues.

I know that's impossible in reality, obviously issues will come up, and young people will learn at some point that 90% of sexual assaults happen in one direction from male to female... but if you've generally had an upbringing where you are treated more equally... then you might be more surprised to learn that fact, and less likely to perpetuate it.

And maybe in 5 years time it will slowly go down to 80% - then 70% - etc.

I'm raising my sons and daughters just fine thank you.

Maybe you teach important life lessons to your kids in stupid little soundbites, but in this house we have important conversations from a young age and they are ongoing, the consent conversation started when they were about 2 actually.

I hardly think you're in a position to dish out parenting advice when you're obviously getting it pretty wrong yourself.

Presumably you had this conversation with your girls… and then everybody clapped 🙄

Have a proper conversation with your daughter. Don’t patronise “boy mums”. And if you really really aren’t capable of avoiding slogans, then no means no is less worse than yes means yes.

But do return to your thread to further educate us all.

Dumpster fire of a thread. This is why men at sexual assault cases always have all their family behind them. Their sweet sons are just naturally aware of meaningful consent and that's why it's so common and sexual assault so rare and obviously not affected by cultural norms? We can just pretend raping your wife wasn't legal in the 90s because people didn't think it wasn't "really rape"?

As a mother of sons I'm not offended and we already have age appropriate conversations about consent and in films where a man kisses with a woman or touches her without consent we say it. Every time.

The apologists are out in force this morning.

Oh ok. So my ‘yes’ at age 9 to my abuser was the right message in the end. Phew! I had wondered!
You’re coming at this all wrong, OP.
My sons will stick with no means no. It’s a much clearer message. It really does mean what it means. No guesswork involved.

Yes I’ll phone him immediately and tell him because in the 18 years I’ve been a parent it didn’t occur to me to eh…. Parent him. Thanks OP!

Lots of victims don't say no. So I'm not sure it is that clear. But you do you if it means you can avoid basic parenting.

But did anyone here say their son was “just naturally aware of meaningful consent”, i.e. no conversation and explanations needed from the parents’ side?
Most people are saying that they are having those conversations with their sons, they just don’t stick to simple phrases.

I'm idly wondering how many mothers of rapists knew what their sons were doing.

Or how many of those mothers refused to believe their children were capable of it.

Or how many of those mothers took umbrage because they knew their sons best.

Etc.

Fwiw, I don't agree with slogans. But nor am I fond of NAMALT. They aren't. But the chance is, statistically speaking, that in every class of 15 teenage boys, 2 will sexually assault a woman at some point before the age of 25. And in every class of 15 girls, 8 will undergo some form of sexual assault. (sexual male predators being likely to be repeat offenders)

Something is radically wrong with the way men are brought up, that's for sure when rape by men /sexual assault/ on women is at such high figures.

I have a DS. Totally agree that it is fact that the vast, vast majority of sex assaults are carried out by men. As a woman in this society I've been on the receiving end of that fact more than once. NAMALT of course, but too many are and unfortunately they don't come with a sign on their head telling you if they're a good one or a bad one.

However 'yes means yes' is a rapists' charter surely? 'Yes' can be coerced and 'yes' can be said and then withdrawn. So no, I won't be teaching my DS that. I'll be teaching him about enthusiastic consent and that consent can be withdrawn at any time - this is what we talk to your 18 year olds about when you send them to our universities.

To be honest OP I opened this thread all guns blazing because 'yes means yes' sounds like some pity-the-poor-boys/men's rights activist slogan!

I’m another who believes that ‘yes means yes’ isn’t right (although I appreciate that ‘no means no’ has its issues

but i have taught my children about consent and encouraged discussions at home when they have learnt things at school

I say to both my children a mixture.

"If i haven't said yes, do not do it!"

"If i have said, no, do not do it, and don't badger me to change that."

Men and boys can also be victims, from women, but more often in LGBTQ relationships so I will ignore this advise as I don't believe that the victim and perpetrator of a sexual assault is decided by genitals.

Better to teach EVERYONE about consent and what voluntary and participatory and willing means and the influence of alcohol. Respect should be two directional in any relationship

I agree with this and I wonder whether actually "stop means stop" is actually a better way of approaching it. As you say though, it's something that involves a conversation and no matter how succinct a phrase is, it doesn't replace the need to instill a level of respect that would automatically prevent horrible situations occurring.

How fucking patronising 😬
I've managed to teach my lovely boy myself so far without any input from random Internet posters........it's a shame the mother of the girl who stalked and harassed him so much online he removed all his social media presence didn't bother to do the same. 🙄

@musingsinmidlife

We don't know the statistics for how many men are sexually assaulted by women because many cases go unreported sadly.

Thanks for your help, girl mum.
What a shame is you don’t have a son, to teach them yourself.
I bet you ‘got what you wanted’ and are so lucky to have girls 😊

(might be projecting but ffs just fuck off with the teach your sons crap, no mother wants a rapist for a child Thankyou!)

Swap ‘mothers’ in your post for ‘parents’? Or to be crystal clear “fathers and mothers”. ?