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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think that a five year old boy should not be permanently excluded from school?

568 replies

whatatanker · 07/10/2022 17:49

My son has been threatened with permanent exclusion today.

His behaviour is poor, but I have honestly tried so many things - have an older son, who is absolutely delightful and enjoys school.

He is 5 weeks into school in his reception year. He’s emotionally immature and struggles to sit still and has started hurting others in the classroom.

Should this really be happening?

OP posts:
crumpetswithjam · 07/10/2022 19:46

YippieKayakOtherBuckets · 07/10/2022 19:41

Honestly OP, I understand that you were very upset when you first posted but your update changes the situation so dramatically that I would ask MNHQ to delete this and re-post in SEN. The school are not talking about permanent exclusion; an individual teacher with minimal experience and understanding of the system has misspoken. You are just going to get a string of replies to your original post from people who haven’t read your update.

This is good advice OP

ArmWrestlingWithChasNDave · 07/10/2022 19:47

Crumpetloveliness · 07/10/2022 19:46

@ArmWrestlingWithChasNDave RTFT, well saying that by your username I doubt your response would alter

I have. Judging by your grammar, you couldn't understand any response posted.

IhateHermioneGranger · 07/10/2022 19:48

@FarmerRefuted when does the difference between summer born and older children become less obvious or minimal? My summer born DC has just started KS1 and it feels quite obvious still.

Underhisi · 07/10/2022 19:48

I do know a child who was permanently excluded aged 6 but this was after 6 short exclusions and behaviour that involved throwing chairs, running out of lessons, hitting and kicking incidents most days and frequent physical interventions from staff

Thatsnotmycar · 07/10/2022 19:49

Schools don't routinely try to 'get rid' of children with additional needs in my 30 years experience as a teacher.

Of course they do! Off rolling is very much a problem.

Crumpetloveliness · 07/10/2022 19:49

@ArmWrestlingWithChasNDave attacking grammar is definitely the way forward to show a lack of informed response

clarcats · 07/10/2022 19:49

Johnnysgirl · 07/10/2022 19:38

If he only turned 4 in July then he's the same age as many children who are still in nursery.
Isn't he 5?

The OP 'got muddled up' her child is actually 4 it seems...

oakleaffy · 07/10/2022 19:50

Crumpetloveliness · 07/10/2022 19:32

Posters on here today remind me of a thread where parents were moaning one child had one to one support in class and there’s didn’t so supported child shouldn’t therefore be allowed to either.

As a teacher biting, hitting and chasing are all developmentally appropriate behaviours for a group of four/five year olds. Not ideal for sure but given the new setting it’s expected. It scares me how little empathy people have and how it continues to decrease.

Try having “ Empathy “ when your child has been bitten so badly bruising and marks are left.
Why should the rights of the aggressor trump those of the well behaved kids, especially at the beginning of the year.
It could frighten them, and who can blame the teacher for not wanting a disruptive child in her class?

TrashPandas · 07/10/2022 19:50

Crumpetloveliness · 07/10/2022 19:49

@ArmWrestlingWithChasNDave attacking grammar is definitely the way forward to show a lack of informed response

Whereas thick comments about usernames are the way to show your formidable intellect? 😁Crawl back in your hole.

FarmerRefuted · 07/10/2022 19:51

IhateHermioneGranger · 07/10/2022 19:48

@FarmerRefuted when does the difference between summer born and older children become less obvious or minimal? My summer born DC has just started KS1 and it feels quite obvious still.

Generally by the end of LS1 although it can vary between individuals, my teenage summer born is still noticeably less mature than peers but they have additional needs whereas my summer norn preteen is one of the more mature children in their class.

Queuesarasarah · 07/10/2022 19:53

GnomeyGnome · 07/10/2022 17:51

Was he at school nursery? What interventions have they put in place for him? Permanent exclusion is the absolute last resort so it's quite shocking that they're threatening that 5 weeks in!

This! I’d be really upset to hear this happening to any child. 90% of the time this will be down to inappropriate demands for the age of child (ie is it fully play based as it should be at this stage of reception, has the teacher taught reception before?) or an undiagnosed additional need which isn’t being adequately supported.

Mumwithbaggage · 07/10/2022 19:53

So many arents with a rose tinted view. Where do you actually think those more appropriate school places are? LAs are cutting down special needs schools and the threshold is very very high. Not these minor issues this early in the year with a summer born chid.

OP, the class teacher was out of line and wrong. The SENDCo will be the person to support you and put a plan into place. Some of my Y5 boys find sitting still and not chasing people pretty heard and they are 9 and 10!! Not that it makes it OK.

MatronicO6 · 07/10/2022 19:55

From your updates OP, it sounds like this particular teacher is in over their head. She likely hasn't dealt with behaviour of this kind before, especially if she came from a private school. As an experienced teacher in an inner city school, we have at least one child like this in every cohort. Many go on to develop in line with age related expectations.

If what you say about HT being annoyed with T is true I would be gracious on this occasion but ask what can be done to help your child adjust. The fact you aren't in denial is a great start, I have often had parents with their head in the sand who didn't want to pursue referrals. If you have startegies that work at home, let them know but ask for sendco support.

namechange0998776554432 · 07/10/2022 19:55

@whatatanker my DS was permanently excluded at age 5, in Y1. I had typed a long post but in the end decided most of what I have to say will only worry or upset you. But I think it's important you know that exclusions of such young children can and do happen. I would prioritise working with the school, keeping things as positive as you can and pursuing any sort of assessments they think are necessary. In my case DS had been diagnosed with ASD at age 4, before starting school. It still took almost 3 years and a year of no education to get him into a special school. If you think your son may have any sort of SEN, the earlier you start the process the better. On reflection I wish I had been open to a diagnosis for my son much earlier than I was.

Crumpetloveliness · 07/10/2022 19:56

@TrashPandas an observation on posts vs. username over length of time on mumsnet, never foolproof of course.

Coucous · 07/10/2022 19:57

What would you do if you couldn't access any other assistance as you said you have tried before and got nowhere. I personally would not have let my child go wild from age 2-5 with no intervention.

You need to help him yourself if you can't find help from the state. There are books, videos online - we can now access so many things vs 40 years ago.

Imagine being at the receiving end of his behaviour?

Novum · 07/10/2022 19:57

Seashor · 07/10/2022 17:59

Well as a teacher whose been on the receiving end of a five year with ‘poor behaviour’ I say good for the school. Having to evacuate your class because a five year old is pelting chairs at other children and ramming you, isn’t acceptable.
And for everyone who says what’s being put in place the answer will be probably nothing!

If that is the situation in your school you need to ask why they are failing children so badly.

Crumpetloveliness · 07/10/2022 20:00

@oakleaffy hopefully the teacher wouldn’t want them out of the class but would rather want to explore support mechanisms that would ensure the child wasn’t disregulated. Of course no one wants anyone hurt but again it happens on occasion and for the sake of a child, a four year old child, missing education we do need to be empathetic.

strawberryjess · 07/10/2022 20:01

As a teacher and a parent of a child in reception I think it's bad they are threatening exclusion. Yes the other children need to be safe but the school needs to be putting measures in place to ensure they are safe. I have taught very poorly behaved teenagers and have sometimes hoped they would be excluded for my own sake but it is always a very last resort for the sake of that child and actually very rare.

Novum · 07/10/2022 20:01

Avidreader69 · 07/10/2022 18:53

The right to access education applies to all the other children in the class too, whose education is being disrupted by one badly behaved child.
As someone else said, in a class of maybe 25 or more children, a teacher or TA can't focus all their attention on one child, trying to anticipate violent outbursts. Teachers are not social workers. Nor is it the function of a GP to sort out poor behaviour in children.

Show quote history

That doesn't mean the child has to be excluded. Really the nursery should have started the process of investigating for SEN, but the school should have started expediting that process including talking to the local authority about initial high needs funding pending a full assessment. If this child has the proper support, the strong chances are that he can be kept in class without disrupting any other children.

Snugglemonkey · 07/10/2022 20:01

Thf, I don't want a badly behaved child in my DC's class if it goes as far as potentially hurting him. I expect school to be a safe place.

How have they tried to manage the behaviour? Does your son have SEN? Is he able to cope in a mainstream settings, or does he need more specialist provision?

Novum · 07/10/2022 20:03

Aquamarine1029 · 07/10/2022 17:54

If he is hurting other children, yes, this should be happening.

No, it shouldn't. What should be happening is the school looking urgently into the support needed to avoid exclusion.

Novum · 07/10/2022 20:06

Fink · 07/10/2022 18:00

He is violent towards other children, so clearly he's not safe to be in a classroom with them. What alternative provision there might be will depend on the school and the child's needs. There's a lot of information missing here for people to be able to give you detailed advice, but the bottom line is that it's reasonable to exclude someone who is a danger to others.

Not unless and until the school has complied with the requirements of the official Exclusions guidance, including calling in outside advice, and considering the possibility of SEND and giving extra support,

Johnnysgirl · 07/10/2022 20:07

BeanieTeen · 07/10/2022 19:39

I would not go in there demanding that a 4yr old is permanently excluded for hitting, chasing, or biting as these are all developmentally appropriate behaviours for that age group.

I worryingly see this said a lot on mumsnet.

If your four year old is biting other children that is not normal and definitely not fucking appropriate. Parents need to wake the hell up. No wonder schools are struggling.

Have to agree. As a general rule of thumb, if your child, in a class of 29+ other children is the only one doing something - it's not that developmentally appropriate!!
Anyway, why does the title say he's 5? Is he actually 4?

Mumofsend · 07/10/2022 20:08

It is baffling how mumsnet seems to think the only solution to addressing behaviour is to get rid of the child.

My DD is a testament to a wonderful school who did it the right way. Never once been excluded

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