To think that a five year old boy should not be permanently excluded from school?

[whatatanker]

My son has been threatened with permanent exclusion today.

His behaviour is poor, but I have honestly tried so many things - have an older son, who is absolutely delightful and enjoys school.

He is 5 weeks into school in his reception year. He’s emotionally immature and struggles to sit still and has started hurting others in the classroom.

Should this really be happening?

I also have a feeling that this particular teacher might get into trouble for mentioning permanent exclusion to me this afternoon. It was done in a casual way after school, not in a proper meeting. She has just started at this school (moved from private sector) and I think her HT might be cross that she’s done this.

Oh, that changes everything OP. That was very unprofessional of the teacher. Children with additional needs are sadly very often ‘moved on’ from some independent schools but it doesn’t quite work like that in the state sector.

The whole system is unfit for purpose. Of course OPs son has a right to an education. But the other 29 children in the class also have a right to an education and to be safe at school. And yes, when there is a conflict of rights (ie one group is being actively demonstrably harmed by the other's presence) then yes, 29 children need to come before the 1. The staff also have a right to be in a safe workplace.
So yes, children with violent behaviour should be excluded (although 5 weeks seems quick to get there, I suspect there's been plenty written in the nursery reference that has prompted this response from the school).
This would work fine if there were ed psychs available for quick assessments; reasonable criteria and enough spaces in SEN schools; and TAs both available and specially trained if 1:1 is required.
Unfortunately none of this exists so what you end up with is a school with funding cuts, barely enough TAs to function and certainly not to 1:1 children who are hurting others (and the LA will drag its feet providing funding for this). Even if they did get as far as an EHCP and funding, TAs are all leaving because poverty wages to be bitten and kicked all day just doesnt make it an attractive job.
There are no options in situations like this. This is the crisis in SEND and schools. It is impossible in a mainstream setting to keep all the children safe and educated with the staff they can afford when a child with behavioural difficulties is in the class, but it is likewise often impossible to get a placement in a specialist school.
Solution: everyone write to your MP. Support teachers and support staff if they strike (being balloted) to stop more staff leaving. All the children, and the staff, deserve better than this.

I think the deal breaker is that he is hurting others, BUT they should be supporting next steps.

A teacher talking about permanent exclusion in this way is not acceptable. At the schools I taught in, a staff member who did this would be in trouble with Head.
What you have described doesn't meet that level anyway.

Posters on here today remind me of a thread where parents were moaning one child had one to one support in class and there’s didn’t so supported child shouldn’t therefore be allowed to either.

As a teacher biting, hitting and chasing are all developmentally appropriate behaviours for a group of four/five year olds. Not ideal for sure but given the new setting it’s expected. It scares me how little empathy people have and how it continues to decrease.

Sorry OP, in the meantime ask for a meeting with the SENCo, ask the quickest way to get an ed psych assessment, and get the ball rolling. It doesn't sound like your son necessarily won't cope in mainstream with that list of behaviours, he might thrive with a 1:1.
Work with the school, recognise their limitations as well with staff and funding and class sizes and also that LAs can be really slow and unhelpful because they don't want to come up with the funding.
But my previous point stands, no one is winning with the current funding and staffing crisis in schools.

They’re already on dodgy ground if they’re threatening exclusion without doing any specific individualised work to support your child. They may be bluffing as schools would usually do anything to avoid a permanent exclusion on their record BUT I’m really concerned about their lack of empathy and willingness to support such a young and disregulated child. I wonder if it might be worth asking to meet with the SENDCO to ask how they plan to support him?

No because I'm not the type of person who have such a knee jerk reaction to it.

As a one off, I would expect school to deal with the issue in a developmentally appropriate way.

As a repeated occurrence, I would still expect it to be dealt with in a developmentally appropriate way and for school to have strategies in place to manage the situation in order to minimise risk to my child.

I would not go in there demanding that a 4yr old is permanently excluded for hitting, chasing, or biting as these are all developmentally appropriate behaviours for that age group. I might be momentarily annoyed that it happened and for my child being upset about it but it's part of parcel of having small children in large groups. This should not be a shock to any school with even the most basic understanding of child development a d they should have tried and tested behaviour strategies they can utilise to manage the behaviour and support all children involved to lessen the chances of it happening again.

Schools don't routinely try to 'get rid' of children with additional needs in my 30 years experience as a teacher. You say it's too early- the school will have a pretty good idea within 5 weeks of whether they think the child can cope in mainstream- for example today I was in a school where they have at least one child out of their 60 Reception children that aren't in the correct place for their needs to be met. The school I was in earlier this week also had a child in Reception who wasn't in the right place for their needs to be met (child unable to sit and take part in any routines/class sessions and is being managed by a teaching assistant 1-1 at present, but still can't access what the other children are accessing), another school I was working with at the end of last year (in their nursery class) had a child in during the last half term for whom the school won't be the correct setting for him. That school invite the children who will be in their reception classes to join their nursery in the summer term, some join full time, some part time, some start after easter and some start nearer the end of term. That particular child bit me, and also would unexpectedly rush towards other children and attack them. Mum initially had said that he wasn't like that anywhere else but then after a few short sessions (the child was only staying for a very short time to get used to the setting) began to realise that when with other children he was unpredictable (she'd taken him to the park after the session, I'm not sure how she hadn't noticed the behaviours before) and would hurt them. For some children then yes, it may be that they need more time to settle into school but for others it can be clear pretty quickly that there's a problem.
I doubt that the school would exclude him and he'd end up straight away at another school, it doesn't tend to work like that, schools do communicate with each other!
It also sounds as if there was a problem in Nursery but the nursery dismissed it.
I currently work as a primary supply teacher in many different schools across the county I live in (and sometimes into the neighbouring ones).

My eldest was like this. Started school at 3 and they quickly talked about permanent exclusion. At nearly 19 they're running an international team of technical bods in a large corporation, earning a very decent salary and just moved into their own accomodation. Also have a list of diagnosis as long as my arm but they're my wonderful very individual DC.

My thoughts to add to the many constructive bits of advice... Keep being your childs advocate, you already have been by pushing for assessment at nursery.

Its time to up your game - push back they can't just dismiss your DC. Start a decent paper trail, did back through any old emails and texts you have from nursery to give history to your concerns. Document every conversation with the school. A simple summary email of conversations and any actions suggested in them creates a valuable dated document that can be refered to in the future.

Document every conversation, every behavioural issue, every intervention/ behavioural management technique you try and they try.

Ask the school if they would support an Education Health Care Plan application in parallel to the steps they're taking. IF you can get your DS's behaviours assessed in a setting its easier than post exclusion. If they don't agree, apply yourself. If you get an application accepted your son should be able to get an Educational psychologists assessment in school and they will be able to advise if they see special educational needs or if there is a developmental delay etc.

If you can avoid pulling your child from school, force them to do a formal push in writing. It sounds like a technicality but then the council have to actively be involved in sorting out alternative and more appropriate education. They may also help with things like transport logistics to another setting. Shen you have multiple children at different settings with similar start/ finish times is essential for your sanity and purse strings. I had three young DC at three settings at one point - complete logistical nightmare.

If you pull then the council can be a little slow in dragging their heels to sort the right new placement. Don't be afraid if the next placement isn't right either. We did 5 primaries (and moved counties twice) all in the search for the right fit. When we found it life really started to fall into place.

This isn't necessarily a disaster. Its distressing and the strong Mum instincts kick in wanting to defend your child - but the fact the school are not the right fit and they've picked this up early could help you find that right fit and have a more contented child much faster. Whats round the corner could be a much better solution.

Good luck - the special needs boards can be very helpful. Masses of knowledge on what goes on with getting assessments and shoulders to help share the burden of stress going through it.

Just wanted to say I totally get you. We are a year behind. A 3 year old DS in pre school and we have already been called in for a meeting about behaviour. DS was pushing toys off the table and he doesn't sit still. They didn't say permanent exclusion but his key worker acted like my DS was a total pain in her arse. She also described my DS as "unusual" with a smirk on her fave. Before that meeting I was worried and embarrassed. But now I'm angry. These are tiny children struggling with school and routine, struggling with new peers, teachers, expectations. Teachers need to work with us parents to find solutions and strategies, not act as if our kids are an annoyance to them. Some kids adapt really well to school. Some love sitting there still and doing what they're told...and others find the whole thing much more overwhelming and they push back against it all. Your DS is not sitting there in the morning every day thinking "I know, I'll bite a kid today". These are not thought out acts. So many people here putting adult morality and judgment onto tiny impulse-led kids.

Absolutely. The other children shouldn't have to suffer violence at school.

This would be my advice too - request a meeting (in writing, via email) with the Head, Sendco and class teacher. In your email, mention how alarmed you were to have the class teacher referring to permanent exclusion and say you wish to work with the school to support your son and avoid this outcome. This way you are letting the head know what has been said.

A class of five year olds will have up to thirty kids....it isnt possible to police one child all the time. If the child is purposely hurting others, refusing to sit down, being disruptive then yes, they absolutely will exclude the child. If this has occurred in the first few weeks, you must have been having problems for a long time. Did your son attend pre school? nursery? childminder? how does he behave at home? with your other child? have you had children back to play with him? Bottom line, you will be offered help, psychologist I expect, but until his behaviour is less dangerous to others and less disruptive, he wont be in mainstream school.

BTW as a general shout out to the public, this is why schools need more staff in them! Especially in the earlier years.

If he only turned 4 in July then he's the same age as many children who are still in nursery.

There was a thread the other week about a child biting other kids in nursery and many people responded to say it was an unfortunate phase and he would grow out of it.

I'd still push for an assessment if you can but he may still just grow out of it (with firm boundaries at home and at school of course - and as many strategies as possible to stop him hurting other kids!)

If he only turned 4 in July then he's the same age as many children who are still in nursery.
Isn't he 5?

as a general shout out to the public, this is why schools need more staff in them!

I'm sure they do but I don't think this illustrates that particularly well - this seems more like poor practice.

I would not go in there demanding that a 4yr old is permanently excluded for hitting, chasing, or biting as these are all developmentally appropriate behaviours for that age group.

I worryingly see this said a lot on mumsnet.

If your four year old is biting other children that is not normal and definitely not fucking appropriate. Parents need to wake the hell up. No wonder schools are struggling.

If nothing else more staff with a bigger pool of knowledge will help with poor practice most of the time. Also more hands to help in general situations, especially when settling new kids in. But it was a derail anyway.

Honestly OP, I understand that you were very upset when you first posted but your update changes the situation so dramatically that I would ask MNHQ to delete this and re-post in SEN. The school are not talking about permanent exclusion; an individual teacher with minimal experience and understanding of the system has misspoken. You are just going to get a string of replies to your original post from people who haven’t read your update.

"Bottom line, you will be offered help, psychologist I expect, but until his behaviour is less dangerous to others and less disruptive, he wont be in mainstream school."

I wonder what your experience is in this area because that is not what happens.

@BeanieTeen
developmentally appropriate is the phrase you use but have failed to understand, behaviours are a child’s way of expression as they are unable to support a more appropriate response. Adults support children in developing appropriate responses but only when a child is capable of it will they be able to not bit/hit/chase

I have qualifications in child development and have worked in both childcare and schools with experience of both EYFS and KS1. Hitting and biting are developmentally appropriate as children are still impulse led at this age, the social-emotional skills are not properly developed yet, and they tend towards acting out when frustrated, tired, hungry, etc. Over the reception year, these behaviours generally decline amongst the cohort as they learn more about what is/isn't acceptable, how to behave out in society, and develop more control over their emotions (can also be a useful indicator of additional needs when children don't develop this control and don't grow out of the behaviour). Differences in maturity between summer borns and autumn borns are also more pronounced at this point and, again, tend to even out as the year progresses.

@ArmWrestlingWithChasNDave RTFT, well saying that by your username I doubt your response would alter