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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that a five year old boy should not be permanently excluded from school?

568 replies

whatatanker · 07/10/2022 17:49

My son has been threatened with permanent exclusion today.

His behaviour is poor, but I have honestly tried so many things - have an older son, who is absolutely delightful and enjoys school.

He is 5 weeks into school in his reception year. He’s emotionally immature and struggles to sit still and has started hurting others in the classroom.

Should this really be happening?

OP posts:
SomethingNastyInTheBallPool · 15/10/2022 08:25

@Anothermother3 Completely agree.

wildchild554 · 15/10/2022 09:22

OP have they started off an EHCP for him, can't remember if I asked this in a previous post, if not either get the school to get on with one or you can apply yourself but you really need to do it now as it takes a year to be put in place and in the meantime get him referred to the pediatrician to find out what's going on. That is a lot of support available once you know and even during the process if you have some idea of what is likely to be the problem. But don't wait as it does take time. I've been where you are now the only difference is he mainly hurt himself rather than others, there was a risk of exclusion, so I know your worries, have been there. Oh and get a meeting with SENCO. It is an uphill battle but worth it and better to start it now so that the right support can be put in and that he can thrive. Don't give up the battle, reach out to people in the same situation or have been in the same situation, they will help to spur you on and keep your hopes up, it will get better just really hard to get there. Good luck OP, you're not on your own. Also if you suspect what it is go on the support groups on facebook, they are really good really helpful, and full of mums who are going through the same or similar things so they can help share what they have found helpful and just generally very supporting.

Florenz · 15/10/2022 11:20

I see an 11 year old is the leader of a criminal gang in Blackpool, no doubt he has SENCO needs which were not met.

Triplecarbs · 15/10/2022 11:22

@Avidreader69 This 100%!

Spikeyball · 15/10/2022 11:59

"I see an 11 year old is the leader of a criminal gang in Blackpool, no doubt he has SENCO needs which were not met."

What are SENCO needs?

LizzieW1969 · 15/10/2022 12:01

The OP has clearly left the thread and won’t be posting again. She hasn’t posted since last Saturday. I’m not surprised as so many comments were brutal.

I’m amazed the thread is still going tbh.

Johnnysgirl · 15/10/2022 12:29

Spikeyball · 15/10/2022 11:59

"I see an 11 year old is the leader of a criminal gang in Blackpool, no doubt he has SENCO needs which were not met."

What are SENCO needs?

Don't be disingenuous, it doesn't make you look remotely clever.

Goingforarun · 15/10/2022 14:19

The leader of such a gang would not have had any SENCO needs.

Spikeyball · 15/10/2022 15:34

"Don't be disingenuous, it doesn't make you look remotely clever."

Just the person who made the comment.

Anothermother3 · 16/10/2022 09:57

Well there is actually a disproportionate number of neurodivergent people in the criminal justice system. I’m pretty sure that gang leader could have had unidentified needs and certainly social ones. He was first given a criminal record at 11. 11 a child! Are you going to be so obtuse as to not even acknowledge that is tragic and a systemic failure.

Children with ADHD for example have so much negative feedback that sometimes they stop trying. If the initial feedback is being told you need to sit still stop distracting people, stop forgetting your things and then gets into a negative cycle why not up the ante. It’s a losing battle. Or you end up with adolescents who are depressed and anxious with internalising behaviours/self harm etc because there self esteem is on the floor from being told they aren’t doing it right day in and day out.

Autistic teens who are more able academically and have been trying to manage in the system with inadequate understanding often end up self harming and suicidal by secondary school (or earlier). These are not uncommon scenarios and given that there is an increase in understanding of neurodivergent individuals (in some sectors at least) when we know better we need to do better. Please try and reframe and think about the far reaching consequences of perpetuating ignorance in your own circles and to your children.

I realise it’s probably easier to say a child needed a good smack and proper discipline though as we wouldn’t want to inconvenience anyone with critical thinking. I’m glad the OP has left. Many of the initial accommodations for neurodivergent children could benefit most neurotypical children if they’re offered universally.

Yes there are training and resource implications but the long term gain would outweigh much of the initial resourcing and the system is so stretched everyone is scrambling reactively to ‘problems’ rather than putting things in place to prevent these. And what was described earlier as a teacher noticing patterns and triggers are all fairly common predictable triggers for autistic children. Of course this should be included in teacher training. It’s not unreasonable to acknowledge that children aren’t robotic vessels eagerly waiting to acquire knowledge. Relationship is the basis for successful teaching surely? Especially KS1/primary teaching.

Need for decreased sensory input need for demands to be decreased. Need for sensory input and movement. It’s not actually impossible. The difference between schools who can’t manage some children and schools who find that same child can be accommodated is sometimes a good Senco and school ethos. If a child presents with difficulties at school the first thing would be to look at how so better adapt school to meet needs it’s not removing children or taking them somewhere to fix them. Neurodivergent children often struggle to generalise skills or interventions if they’re not done in situ (understandably really it doesn’t make sense managing school difficulties in another context for the purpose of changing how a child responds and feels at school).

It isn’t always enough but usually in the schools that are inclusive everyone is benefitting even the precious little darling children who are victims of these monster children who are clearly malevolent and malicious 🙄. Sometimes schools need to be able to be honest and realistic and say we aren’t meeting this child’s needs but it’s not the first step.

Give it a few years and it may become evident that some of the ‘victims’ of these ‘awful’ children are picking up on the intolerance of their parents and perpetuating all these awful ableist attitudes. Meeting needs benefits all its not taking away from the perfect children who supposedly ‘deserve better’. I’m not sure why I’m still plugging away maybe I still have some hope that perspectives can change.

One child who did leave my DC’s school was talked about like this amongst other parents. The poor child had so much stacked against him socially and developmentally and it was disgusting that adults behaved like this. I’m sure I had some unpopular views there too. Yes he didn’t know how to manage himself but surely explaining why and how he was struggling to children isn’t that hard for a parent.

fUNNYfACE36 · 16/10/2022 11:17

Anothermother3 · 16/10/2022 09:57

Well there is actually a disproportionate number of neurodivergent people in the criminal justice system. I’m pretty sure that gang leader could have had unidentified needs and certainly social ones. He was first given a criminal record at 11. 11 a child! Are you going to be so obtuse as to not even acknowledge that is tragic and a systemic failure.

Children with ADHD for example have so much negative feedback that sometimes they stop trying. If the initial feedback is being told you need to sit still stop distracting people, stop forgetting your things and then gets into a negative cycle why not up the ante. It’s a losing battle. Or you end up with adolescents who are depressed and anxious with internalising behaviours/self harm etc because there self esteem is on the floor from being told they aren’t doing it right day in and day out.

Autistic teens who are more able academically and have been trying to manage in the system with inadequate understanding often end up self harming and suicidal by secondary school (or earlier). These are not uncommon scenarios and given that there is an increase in understanding of neurodivergent individuals (in some sectors at least) when we know better we need to do better. Please try and reframe and think about the far reaching consequences of perpetuating ignorance in your own circles and to your children.

I realise it’s probably easier to say a child needed a good smack and proper discipline though as we wouldn’t want to inconvenience anyone with critical thinking. I’m glad the OP has left. Many of the initial accommodations for neurodivergent children could benefit most neurotypical children if they’re offered universally.

Yes there are training and resource implications but the long term gain would outweigh much of the initial resourcing and the system is so stretched everyone is scrambling reactively to ‘problems’ rather than putting things in place to prevent these. And what was described earlier as a teacher noticing patterns and triggers are all fairly common predictable triggers for autistic children. Of course this should be included in teacher training. It’s not unreasonable to acknowledge that children aren’t robotic vessels eagerly waiting to acquire knowledge. Relationship is the basis for successful teaching surely? Especially KS1/primary teaching.

Need for decreased sensory input need for demands to be decreased. Need for sensory input and movement. It’s not actually impossible. The difference between schools who can’t manage some children and schools who find that same child can be accommodated is sometimes a good Senco and school ethos. If a child presents with difficulties at school the first thing would be to look at how so better adapt school to meet needs it’s not removing children or taking them somewhere to fix them. Neurodivergent children often struggle to generalise skills or interventions if they’re not done in situ (understandably really it doesn’t make sense managing school difficulties in another context for the purpose of changing how a child responds and feels at school).

It isn’t always enough but usually in the schools that are inclusive everyone is benefitting even the precious little darling children who are victims of these monster children who are clearly malevolent and malicious 🙄. Sometimes schools need to be able to be honest and realistic and say we aren’t meeting this child’s needs but it’s not the first step.

Give it a few years and it may become evident that some of the ‘victims’ of these ‘awful’ children are picking up on the intolerance of their parents and perpetuating all these awful ableist attitudes. Meeting needs benefits all its not taking away from the perfect children who supposedly ‘deserve better’. I’m not sure why I’m still plugging away maybe I still have some hope that perspectives can change.

One child who did leave my DC’s school was talked about like this amongst other parents. The poor child had so much stacked against him socially and developmentally and it was disgusting that adults behaved like this. I’m sure I had some unpopular views there too. Yes he didn’t know how to manage himself but surely explaining why and how he was struggling to children isn’t that hard for a parent.

Calling a 4 year old who has been bitten ' a precious little darling' isn't helping your argument at all. One of my DC was bitten in reception year.It broke t he skin and the bite got infected.Its a horrible and frightening thing for a very small child to go through! If you dropped this attitude and were more empathetic, perhaps you would find greater tolerance from parents towards your own child? Just a thought

Johnnysgirl · 16/10/2022 11:24

Yes, sorry, the dismissive "precious little darlings" is not sitting right with me either. All the other children impacted by your child's behaviour are not just acceptable collateral damage.

Anothermother3 · 16/10/2022 19:17

@fUNNYfACE36 particularly and @Johnnysgirl and anyone else this came across to in this way my apologies I get how that read and it was really insensitive of me. I was not referring to children who have been seriously injured but the hand wringing at some children needing extra resources and having other children in a class disrupted. The way parents talk about the children with SEN is what upsets me but it’s the schools duty to safeguard and put measures in place and whilst this isn’t always enough making the child out to be awful isn’t helpful. No child’s needs should trump another’s and that goes in both directions. I was writing with too much emotional investment and frustration at schools and systems and the attitudes towards parents of typically developing children towards parents of and children with SEN.

Of course I would be so upset and worried if there was serious injury to my child and I’m really sorry @fUNNYfACE36 that your child had to go through that. I’d be really upset too. My children aren’t actually in this position of hurting others or being excluded. I would be mortified if they were hurting other children but don’t think being shamed and made to feel at fault would help if it was beyond what I could oversee. I’d want to know how that was going to be better managed and prevented.

I was reacting to the previous posters who said that children who want to learn as the ‘precious’ part as if they are somehow in a separate superior category and shouldn’t have to be with these ‘other’ children. The op wasn’t talking about her DC having injured anyone more that they are almost certainly neurodivergent, likely overwhelmed and that they are not having sufficient thought put into that (other than how it’s not acceptable to be that way). Some schools really reinforce this attitude with children even when they could adapt and include. I’m not unrealistic it’s not always enough but the way that’s addressed needs to be very different to what happened here.

Goingforarun · 17/10/2022 01:59

Why are so many assuming this child is ‘neurodivergent’? There can be other explanations you know.

Leahthom · 29/11/2022 20:37

Hi I'm going through exactly the same thing, my son is 5. The school have him on a reduced timetable and he's been excluded a few times for his behaviour. We have had meetings with the educational psychologist and he's being referred to neurological team. Just waiting now....

Noviembre · 29/11/2022 20:51

He's hurting others, he has to go. I'm glad the school is taking the other childrens' safety seriously.

Thatsnotmycar · 29/11/2022 21:01

Leahthom · 29/11/2022 20:37

Hi I'm going through exactly the same thing, my son is 5. The school have him on a reduced timetable and he's been excluded a few times for his behaviour. We have had meetings with the educational psychologist and he's being referred to neurological team. Just waiting now....

Have you applied for an EHCP?

The school should not be using a reduced timetable to manage DS’s behaviour. He should be in school full time or they should formally exclude (or if DS has turned 5 this term you can, if you want, exercise your right for DS to attend part time until January but this shouldn’t be the school instigating because of DS’s behaviour). What the school are doing now is illegally excluding DS. Tell the school DS will be attending full time unless they formally exclude.

Tessabelle74 · 29/11/2022 23:44

@Anothermother3 calling my 4 year old a "precious little darling" because he was sat on and strangled hard enough to leave marks is actually quite offensive! At what point do we stop trying to accommodate violent children? Is strangling ok? Is throwing chairs ok? Where is your line? A knife attack maybe?

Leahthom · 30/11/2022 05:18

The school have put into place an Individual development plan (idp) but no EHCP. How do I apply for that? They are telling me he is not coping in school but not telling me what I can do about it to support him. Xx

Thisisworsethananticpated · 30/11/2022 07:11

You need more help and support and an assessment
basically

as in the LT mainstream might not be right for him anyway

there are rafts of information online about this

they are ok in mainstream when 5
but when puberty kicks in you’ll be screaming for an ECHP

have you any inkling into what this could be ?

Thisisworsethananticpated · 30/11/2022 07:13

And start to educate yourself

I don’t say that nastily but as a mum who’s only just got an ECHP I have to take on a HUGE amount of self education

your local authority will have a lot of groups

maybe start with the SEN website ?

Thisisworsethananticpated · 30/11/2022 07:16

Goingforarun

i used to to think same !
used to see it said here and said the exact same things as you

then my son was assessed as autistic and I learnt that with a child with such issues
and so young ….

it’s probably ND….

x2boys · 30/11/2022 08:55

Leahthom · 30/11/2022 05:18

The school have put into place an Individual development plan (idp) but no EHCP. How do I apply for that? They are telling me he is not coping in school but not telling me what I can do about it to support him. Xx

Ask for a meeting with th SENCO and may be being along the local SENDIASS rep ( special educational needs ,independence advisory service) in my area they are brilliant but obviously that might not be the case everywhere,and start the ball rolling for an EHCP even if school refuse to apply for one ,you can apply as a parent .

x2boys · 30/11/2022 08:58

Goingforarun · 17/10/2022 01:59

Why are so many assuming this child is ‘neurodivergent’? There can be other explanations you know.

It often is ,it's a HUGE spectrum and behavioural problems can well be part of a child'with autism presentations.

Itsonlyagame · 30/11/2022 09:07

Goingforarun · 17/10/2022 01:59

Why are so many assuming this child is ‘neurodivergent’? There can be other explanations you know.

Yes there are but the inability to sit still, emotional immaturity and overwhelm resulting in injuring others are all neurodiversity signs.

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