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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that a five year old boy should not be permanently excluded from school?

568 replies

whatatanker · 07/10/2022 17:49

My son has been threatened with permanent exclusion today.

His behaviour is poor, but I have honestly tried so many things - have an older son, who is absolutely delightful and enjoys school.

He is 5 weeks into school in his reception year. He’s emotionally immature and struggles to sit still and has started hurting others in the classroom.

Should this really be happening?

OP posts:
TigerRag · 10/10/2022 16:53

drspouse · 10/10/2022 16:52

Too bad you live in a society where the law says that all children get an education, then, isn't it?

That includes the children he's biting surely? Don't they have a right to be safe in school?

Thatsnotmycar · 10/10/2022 17:36

RedToothBrush · 10/10/2022 16:27

I guess that position depends on whether its your child getting hurt in school though doesn't it?

No, I don’t think it does, and I say that as someone who has been on both sides. I don’t condone schools acting unlawfully at all.

Mumofsend · 10/10/2022 17:51

There are a million steps that should be happening before exclusion. You don't just exclude a 4 year old who has bitten. They are 4. It baffles me how the options seem to be limited to excluding them, they aren't.

There are two troublesome students in my DD's year. One is a runner, the other your more classic chair/table/bottle thrower.

The first 6 months of reception was rough. Neither were ever excluded or isolated. The school did their jobs the right way. They do behaviour charts and plans. They identify triggers, corresponding behaviours and what happens at each stage. At each stage is a list of steps for staff.

The school knew how to evidence everything and make sure the LA provide the funding and resources. Sometimes that is money, sometimes that is an outreach consult re specific behaviours.

Both children are now absolutely thriving. Neither has had an incident of note in the past 18 months (just started year 3). In fact, due to their support they have far less issues than the general class.

I know because one is my child, the other is a child of a mum I've become close with.

The TAs that work with these two know their early warning signs, they de-escalate at that point and all it takes is a quick lap around the field or ear defenders on after a 5 minute job outside.

They are doing amazingly because their school did what they are supposed to do.

But according to mumsnet World, they should both be banished to the pit of hell for being bad kids who don't want to learn.

Johnnysgirl · 10/10/2022 18:27

drspouse · 10/10/2022 16:52

Too bad you live in a society where the law says that all children get an education, then, isn't it?

Very dismissive comment! "Too bad"??

Morph22010 · 10/10/2022 19:29

oakleaffy · 10/10/2022 13:57

Are classes no longer “Streamed”?
It used to put the kids who wanted to learn together, so they could learn in peace, and the disruptive ones were in a terrapin block.
It’s not fair on any child who wants to learn to be relentlessly disrupted by kids who for whatever reason can’t or won’t “ Behave”.
Seems there are many more disruptive children nowadays who are forced into lessons eminently unsuitable for them.

Kids don’t fit neatly into one box though. My autistic child is firmly in the want to learn camp and excels in lessons when he is calm. However he couldn’t cope with the sensory aspects of a mainstream school, too busy, too noisy etc and he used to get to the point where he had a complete meltdown and classes had to be evacuated. If you put him with a bunch of loud disruptive kids he would be a lot worse as he wouldn’t cope and would lose control

oakleaffy · 10/10/2022 19:33

Johnnysgirl · 10/10/2022 18:27

Very dismissive comment! "Too bad"??

Possibly the parent or sympathiser of a biter and hitter rather than a parent of a child who has been bitten or hit by a hurled chair.

Violence absolutely is not on.
No excuses. No matter what the age.

Mumofsend · 10/10/2022 19:40

oakleaffy · 10/10/2022 19:33

Possibly the parent or sympathiser of a biter and hitter rather than a parent of a child who has been bitten or hit by a hurled chair.

Violence absolutely is not on.
No excuses. No matter what the age.

My child has firmly been on both sides of it. You can sympathise with a child needing more support whilst advocating for how your child will not face a repeat whilst also not expecting a young child to be excluded.

Thatsnotmycar · 10/10/2022 19:45

Johnnysgirl · 10/10/2022 18:27

Very dismissive comment! "Too bad"??

Dismissive. You mean like all those posters who are dismissive of the legislation that prevents schools acting unlawfully?

LetMeSpeak · 10/10/2022 19:50

clearly there’s something mentally going on here. I think it’s very unfair on your poor DS. he clearly needs more help and a perminant exclusion is an outdated way of dealing with this especially at such a young age.

Anothermother3 · 10/10/2022 20:25

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-63161128

@whatatanker have a look at this article. Opinions aside your little boy has a legal right to access a full and balanced curriculum and state schools cannot lawfully discriminate against him for behaviour/difficulties related to SEN. The teacher from the private sector needs to change her rhetoric. I’d escalate your concerns. Start by email to the head and then governors, local authority and Ofsted should that not be sufficient. I hope you’re okay too.

MeandT · 10/10/2022 20:35

The water seems to be getting muddied here by people referencing cases of extreme violence in reception settings and comparing this to OP's sons settling in experience of one instance of biting and 3 occasions hitting another child.

Let's be clear that any school's response to these two wildly different behaviour patterns would and should be very different.

And yet we have @Florenz wading in basically saying that only children with completely perfect behaviour deserve an education in mainstream school!

Which would be marvellous if we had a super well funded education & children's services system, but we don't. Funding for special schools was cut donkey's years ago. Funding for SEN support, CAMHS and assessments has been squeezed ever harder over the last 12 years from Conservative austerity cuts. School budgets are under more pressure than ever before this academic year, so most are having to cut TAs and LSAs to pay the heating bill, even when there are children whose education (and that of the other 29 in the class) would clearly benefit from that additional adult in their setting.

As taxpayers, we have (nationally) voted for this, condoned this approach to education, and returned a government making these cuts time after time.

Voters like @Florenz no doubt think that an approach that only suits the 'normal' majority is absolutely fine. Voted for by the able majority. But what happens if that child that is kicked out in the first term? There is no school place for them without an assessment. Assessments are taking well over a year in most parts of the country. Does the OP give up work to home educate? Claiming Universal Credit for unemployment, housing costs and carers allowance? Does the child bounce from pillar to post until they are in prison needing 3 paid wardens to cover a 24 hour rota because they've been unable to learn how to be a productive member of society in the education system?

Or is the investment of an additional LSA in the classroom THIS term the best investment taxpayers can make in OP's child? We've heard examples in the thread of amazing EYFS teachers picking up hearing loss, autism, ADHD and more by observing childrens' trigger points well.

A bite or kick from an overwhelmed 4 year old is NOT the same as 'terrorising the classroom'. I thought my own summer born would find Year R a doddle after four 10 hour days at nursery. At the end of the first week they bit ME - an outlet from a massive environment change where they are required to do exactly what they are told for 7 hours straight, with far fewer freedoms than in nursery, with tasks they are often enjoying taken away from them arbitrarily because 'it's time'. My child is developmentally 'normal' by the way, but summer born.

I'm lucky it was me not another child & I adjusted my expectations & out of school plans accordingly.

Sure, schools need to act swiftly in the interests of ALL children if a very violent child presents in Year R with no previous intervention history or support.

Teachers also need to pay attention and help young Year R pupils struggling to settle, which is the description OP has given - and multiple EYFS posters on the thread have given examples of best practice on how teachers and schools can help eliminate agressive responses through good classroom practice and supporting the child having difficulties.

Good support should ensure no other children are hurt once it's in place. De facto, if other children are still getting hurt, the school has not yet provided adequate support. Once they are at multiple support interventions and 2-1 adult support/restraining, sure there should be plenty of evidence that, at THAT point, mainstream education is unlikely to work, and fast tracking for special school should be underway.

I notice that none of the 'kick the kid out' posters have commented at all on the fact the teacher has recently relocated from private school. I'm not one for teacher bashing, they have a huge workload. But in OP's scenario, we do need to consider that the teacher might be so bad they they have already lost their job in a small class size private school. And is now completely out of their depth with a mixed ability state reception class of 30, including one child who needs a bit more attention and help to settle in to new routines without blowing a gasket.

It is entirely possible it is the teacher that is the problem rather than the child in OP's scenario! Mull that over @Florenz...

Aria999 · 10/10/2022 20:41

@MeandT

👏👏👏

Hulahoops78 · 11/10/2022 10:56

Sorry, but other children in that class also have a right to an education. My daughter has just started in reception and I would be having concerns if this sort of behaviour was being taken out on her. I don't send her to school to be bitten / hit etc. I send her to learn.

MeandT · 11/10/2022 11:45

As does every parent of every child with Special Educational Needs across the country!

They are educational needs, that is why every state school in the UK is required to "use their best endeavours to make sure that a child with SEN gets the support they need – this means doing everything they can to meet children and young people’s SEN".

If the school doesn't have the training, resources, or budget to meet the needs of a child who finds school so overwhelming and difficult that they end up biting... change who you vote for so the schools get enough cash to ensure they can meet their obligations!

ChelseaRobertsofMalibu · 11/10/2022 12:02

Crikey that’s a lot of questions!

IAmSloth · 11/10/2022 12:17

Sadly yes, if the school do not have the staff to support thre child and keep others safe from harm, the priority is safety here fir everyone

Madamum18 · 11/10/2022 14:07

I suspect the key here is a teacher who has just arrived from the private sector! Go and talk to the HT and discuss how you can work together to help your son settle etc. I think you also need to find out quite what the new teacher is doing when he "misbehaves" ...sadly she may have taken a bit of a "down" on a child who in her eyes is being "disruptive". I don't mean she is being unkind per se, but her strategies may be implemented at a pretty early stage for a young reception child and may not be best for him.

keep talking to the school. you sound like a realistic and sensible mum who knows her child well ...use that to help the school help your son to settle. If you really think he needs assessing, ask the school about that too but do be very clear whether this is just he's young rather than anything else. The "label" argument is daft though!

BackOnceAgainWith · 11/10/2022 16:48

I have a 3 year old in a similar boat. hasn't been asked to leave but called in for two meetings. They just seem to have a real issue with him. Every day they send me negative stuff about him talking, singing, pushing toys off the table etc but they don't seem to have any strategies. They keep saying "what should we do" and now they're starting sending me emails saying "they don't have capacity to deal with it" and want SEN to come in and observe. Feel totally overwhelmed. I hate to think of them hating him. This thread is so helpful

Madamum18 · 11/10/2022 17:58

Violence absolutely is not on. No excuses. No matter what the age

Noone is saying it is on! Just that this is a 4-year-old who is still learning aspects of socialisation and that he needs to support just like all 4-year-olds in aspects of behaviour. Noone is saying that the other kids don't matter, including the OP

Novum · 11/10/2022 19:11

IAmSloth · 11/10/2022 12:17

Sadly yes, if the school do not have the staff to support thre child and keep others safe from harm, the priority is safety here fir everyone

Not having enough staff is not an excuse to do nothing and chuck the child out. The situation should have triggered an urgent application for funding for extra support some time ago, plus steps to get advice on how to meet the child's needs.

Florenz · 11/10/2022 20:16

At what age does it become wrong for a child to bite and hit their classmates?

oakleaffy · 11/10/2022 20:30

Florenz · 11/10/2022 20:16

At what age does it become wrong for a child to bite and hit their classmates?

It is never acceptable to hit classmates or bite or throw things at them.
A 5 yr old hitting 5 yr olds is just as bad as a 10 yr old doing the same to 10 yr olds.

Aria999 · 11/10/2022 20:30

Florenz · 11/10/2022 20:16

At what age does it become wrong for a child to bite and hit their classmates?

It's always wrong but permanent exclusion is a very drastic measure which I would think should be a last resort after all else has failed.

MeandT · 11/10/2022 21:28

It is always wrong.

But a 4 year old with undiagnosed ASD, or AD(H)D, or glue ear, or aspergers, or a family bereavement, or a relative with cancer, or the 3rd 'stepdad' in 18 months thumping him & his Mum around at home, might ALL potentially present with a biting incident when unable to cope in the classroom environment.

Or even the completely neurotypical, solid home environment, summer born who's had enough of being told to sit still & can't understand why the play equipment they were PROMISED it was their turn on this morning has just been given to the child that had it yesterday AGAIN - just because the TA from yesterday is off sick.

Especially in the first month when they haven't even settled in yet & don't know who they can really trust.

No-one is suggesting it is allowed! But once it's happened once, it is the job of the teacher and the school to identify what the circumstances were to prevent it happening again. And if that requires additional TA support, to provide it. If it requires getting the SENCO in to put some management activities in placed based on previous children they've had effective results with in similar cases, to arrange that. If it happens a second time, to ensure the child is located nearest the teacher and potentially always with a TA observing, helping and de-escalating on that table. If they identify patterns of problems which need documenting & referring for a medical diagnosis (of disability and or special educational need), doing that ASAP. And yes, ensuring it doesn't happen again so other children aren't hurt!

But as a starter for 10, I'd go all the way out on the limb and say a Year R teacher who keeps in a frustrated, agressive child to miss breaktime as a punishment, doesn't have the faintest idea about helping 4 year olds of any persuasion!

SomethingNastyInTheBallPool · 11/10/2022 22:45

@MeandT Perfectly put.

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