To think that a five year old boy should not be permanently excluded from school?

[whatatanker]

My son has been threatened with permanent exclusion today.

His behaviour is poor, but I have honestly tried so many things - have an older son, who is absolutely delightful and enjoys school.

He is 5 weeks into school in his reception year. He’s emotionally immature and struggles to sit still and has started hurting others in the classroom.

Should this really be happening?

But what are you suggesting the parents do? Should they pull them out of school and home educate for the next 14 years.

"At my then child's school, several parents joined the board of governors specifically to get a reception aged child removed"

Bollocks.
There are a specified number of governors that are elected at specific times when a space becomes available. It's not a club you can join when you feel like it. I think you are confusing board of governors with a bitchy clique of parents.

@Morph22010 Yes, if it means the majority

@Morph22010 Yes!

There are laws regarding exclusion and who is allowed in school generally. Randoms don't get a say because you can imagine the amount of bigotry if they did. Any parent is of course allowed to withdraw their own child and move them to another school/home educate if they wish.

If he's only just turned 4,why not take him out of school until September. I'm sure children o ly have to stat school the term after their 5 birthday

Taking DS out of school until next September may not be the best idea in the longer term.

Parents find it easier to get support when DC attends school. And if OP has to appeal for an EHCP, as many parents do, they won’t have a finalised EHCP before next September so they could just be kicking the can a year down the road and restarting with all the same difficulties and no more support in place than there currently is.

Even if OP wants DS to redo reception, I would keep him in reception this year and push for an EHCNA then try to get deceleration written into the EHCP.

Genuine question as someone who is sending their daughter to school next year, if the consensus seems to be it would like inappropriate or detrimental to the child to remove them etc,what should the parent of the child who is being hit do? Do we just wait until the child is diagnosed etc?

Obviously everyone puts their child first and I understand things happen once or twice - but I can’t imagine sitting back and letting my child (and others) be hit again and again? It doesn’t seem fair for me to have to remove my child? But if the school or parents didn’t deal with the boy then I’d feel I’d need to. I couldn’t sit back and let my child physically and mentally be impact but another’s. I was horrifically bullied as a child and the parents/school did not about it for years so I had to be moved.

As I said a genuine question as what the best approach is for those on the other side?

It's interesting how pro EHE people are when a child has some challenging behaviours.

I wonder how many have experience of Electively Home Educating, and I don't mean lockdown learning when there was a school providing resources

I EHE one of my 4, not because of challenging behaviour. It's a big undertaking and not everyone can give up work.

Or what's involved in getting a special school placement.

My child who can display challenging behaviour is in an independent special school, it's 50 miles away. The LA pays around £100k for fees and transport. His former mainstream did everything they could to get me to deregister, I got him moved via a tribunal. The LA refused to properly write the EHCP and insisted the school could meet needs.

I do wonder if the LA had properly assessed and written a decent EHCP if mainstream could have worked. Possibly not, but it could have all been done in a supportive way, rather than the tactics they used to try and force me to deregister.

I've Gone on a merail there.

OPS child is 4, it sounds like 6 or so incidents in the first 5 weeks. OP acknowledges her child displayed such behaviour in nursery. Nothing happens fast with SEN, but it often won't happen at all unless parents get informed (IPSEA SOSSEN are great resources) and push for support. And beware of meetings that never results in action

You take up with the school about keeping your child safe. The school cannot discuss the other child with you, but can put things in place for your child. E.g. "check ins" at playtime/lunchtime by staff, change of seating arrangements etc.

As well as what Pen posted, you could support the parents through ‘the system’ so their DC gets the appropriate support as soon as possible. Many parents don’t know what should be happening and information from professionals is often not forthcoming, at all or not in a timely manner. Sadly, DC whose parents know the system, know what should be happening and can advocate for their DC get better support. It shouldn’t be like that but it is.

Things like suggest the parent applies for an EHCNA themselves, contacts charities such as IPSEA and SOSSEN, pushes for diagnostic assessments, applies for DLA, if appropriate asks for children’s services assessments. Suggest they read the SENCOP, exclusion guidance and attendance guidance and ensure the school and LA follow the law. Suggest they push the school to act proactively rather than reactively, apply for high needs top up funding and get the specialist teaching service involved.

All this will ensure appropriate support is put in place as soon as possible which will be in the best interest of the whole class.

No one is saying the school should never exclude a child displaying VCB, but that they must follow due process, which hasn’t happened in the OP’s case.

Well all I can say is I’m glad you were never my sons teacher with your attitude. He’s now at a fantastic asd school where he gets specialised support to learn how to manage emotions, his sensory needs etc so that hopefully he can go on to function in society, have a job etc. rather than being written off at 4 and having to be kept at home

Put pressure on the school, so regularly speak to them, put in writing complaints etc, not because you necessarily want the child to get kicked out but it is best for everyone if the child is adequately supported and you putting pressure on means school are more likely to do something

@Alltheholidays it is if you going to be jumped up and judgemental. My son is 2 and a half and displaying behaviour of a normal toddler!!

until you have worked in education with children of this age range, which I suspect you don’t given your response, then I suggest you stop!

And no, my response has absolutely nothing to do with my son, and everything to do with my years in education! If I didn’t have my so , my response would be the same!!!

I think the same about mainstream. We had issues from year 1 but were refused assessment and it took till year 3 to get the ehcp in place by which time it was too late and he moved to specialist in year 4. I wonder a lot if he got the support early on when we first had issues if mainstream would have worked. The ht used to say to me that I was choosing to send my Ds to a mainstream school and he shouldn’t be in one so I can see how people feel pressure to home Ed. I knew early on I didn’t want to home Ed it wouldn’t work for us and I was only going to move when we got a suitable placement so I stuck it out but it was a horrible time

@Morph22010 😆
@Plaidparty you must allow you child to be a punch bag, and never ever complain about the little sod that’s causing mayhem! That’s about the size of it!

Ds3s issues started in Yr1 too, he had a diagnosis age 4 but nursery and reception passed without incident. I got him moved Yr3.

The headteacher offered to fund my DS4 in wraparound care if I moved DS3 to another local school. Very oversubscribed so couldn't get DS4 in, even with sibling priority. So the named mainstream were prepared to pay for something they didn't have to in order to avoid something they were obligated to do. This was said in front of an LA manager, who said nothing.

There were constant ambushes and loads of antagonistic incidents, it really was utter hell.

No mine was the one causing mayhem but now he’s supported he’s not and will most probably go on to be able to regulate emotions and have a job etc. if I’d taken your advise and pulled him out of school at 4 meaning I then had no access to professional support he would most likely at best live the rest of his life on benefits or end up in prison or a mental health ward but guess you’re ok with that as long as the majority aren’t effected at all

No. No it’s shouldn’t. They should be suggesting an assessment and looking at what support your son needs.

It is true that I am on the other side of the pond, and there are certainly differences, but I think the similarities here are striking. It is clear from the discussion that expulsion is not something that is easily accomplished NOR SHOULD IT BE.
Still, I think parents with older, well-behaved siblings tend to minimize the problems of the younger child who may have difficulty adjusting to school. Second sons are typically rebellious, in fact, I found that I could predict with about 90% accuracy the birth order of a child, based on his or her behavior in class. So, a parent who is used to good behavior by the oldest child may not take seriously the complaints of the school.
The really important thing, though, is to remember that OTHER children have the right to go to school and not be attacked or bullied (not that I'm saying necessarily that this particular child did any bullying).

Someone mentioned taking the child out for a while until he's a little more mature, and I think that's a great idea. He probably just isn't ready for school and needs a break to get used to the idea; I've seen this sort of break be very helpful in this kind of situation.

I was working as a special needs support worker in a primary school and one little 5 year old boy would come into class and destroy it. He would turn the tables over, Rip displays from the walls and trash anything else that got in his way.
we often had to evacuate the classroom as quickly as possible in case anyone got hurt.
So yes some 5 year olds should be excluded!

well he shouldn’t be there in the first place if this is happening regularly but excluding won’t help him to be any better, other than it is extra evidence for his parents when they go to tribunal to fight for an ehcp or specialist placement and will of course be easier for staff and other children if he’s not there. The problem is the Sen system which means a child has to have evidence of failing before they are given adequate support and even then it takes a long time. Main stream inclusion isn’t genuine inclusion, it’s trying to do Sen education on the cheap in the name of it being inclusion

I think this is spot on, sadly.

@Morph22010
well he shouldn’t be there in the first place if this is happening regularly but excluding won’t help him to be any better, other than it is extra evidence for his parents when they go to tribunal to fight for an ehcp or specialist placement and will of course be easier for staff and other children if he’s not there. The problem is the Sen system which means a child has to have evidence of failing before they are given adequate support and even then it takes a long time. Main stream inclusion isn’t genuine inclusion, it’s trying to do Sen education on the cheap in the name of it being inclusion

This child has been in education a matter of weeks... you've identified the horrific delays and challenges parents face here, what are you doing to challenge this?

There is shedloads that may be done to benefit the child, improve his abilities to engage positively and contribute alongside his peers. What do you imagine becomes of a child excluded before the age of 5 in adult life?
Exclusion is rarely the answer and absolutely shouldn't be this early on prior to any assessments happening. The child is 4 fgs!

Boggling at the poster seriously suggesting removing tables and chairs from the classroom so they can't be thrown 😳
Where do you go from there?? Padded cells, to stop one child from causing mayhem?