To think that a five year old boy should not be permanently excluded from school?

[whatatanker]

My son has been threatened with permanent exclusion today.

His behaviour is poor, but I have honestly tried so many things - have an older son, who is absolutely delightful and enjoys school.

He is 5 weeks into school in his reception year. He’s emotionally immature and struggles to sit still and has started hurting others in the classroom.

Should this really be happening?

@bluesapphire48, as you write about "behavior" and "grade school", would I be right in thinking you are not talking about the English school system?

Plenty of posters have pointed out that there is no legal obligation for a child of this age to attend school.
The OP has not replied to these suggestions. Maybe easier to let the school and the classmates deal with and suffer the bad behaviour rather than parent the child at home.

Bollocks @fUNNYfACE36. Total bollocks. You clearly have no understanding of how these things work if you're trying to spout that. The board of governors have an opinion, but no sway. It takes a lot more to permanently exclude a child, as it should. And there aren't unlimited spaces to just join up to.

From what the OP has said, it seems the difficulties are mostly around interactions with peers, but not constantly. Those issues are difficult to address by parenting at home.

The focus needs to shift on identifying what is happening before these incidents, and putting strategies in place to prevent them. If school do not have the resources then they need to press the LA either for emergency funding and/or Specialist teacher/behaviour support.

Parent should request an EHCP needs assessment, but that will take a minimum of 20 weeks, and if needs to appeal any of the 3 stages, you can add on extra year to each part.

If it were me, I'd commission an independent OT assessment by a Sensory Integration qualified OT. But I appreciate that's not always an affordable option.

And then the whole school clapped at this 4 year old was ejected from the school, over the fence via a cannon

@whatatanker I’ve read all your posts and you seem very aware, as a mum on the other side, my DD was bitten, punched, held in puddles by a lad at her primary school in year 1 and 2.

we had to wait nearly a school year to get her moved to another primary in year 2.

she’s now year 7 and her main worry was meeting this boy again.

he’s started following her (took 6 days at secondary for it to start again) nothing physical yet, but taunting and name calling.

the lad had been failed (parents did not want to know or accept that he could/would do any wrong) and his behaviour has not been managed at all in the last few years.

please take your boy for assessments, I know the wait is long but do push for it, you seem to be supporting him, but the behaviour you describe is how DDs tormentor started and has now escalated (was offering cannabis to other students this week at 11 years old!). I don’t think he’s happy at all but he has no support.

that one boy has had such a detrimental effect on DDs mental health is unbelievable. And we’re looking at it starting up again (thought the secondary school are a lot more proactive than the primary was).

So basically you bullied them out ?
Nice 🙄

Yep it’s disgusting behaviour :( the poor child!

Regardless of the situation, the school
should have done more! Hounding out a defenseless five year old (or four if not yet five) is shocking behaviour and constitutes another example of how people give up on children too easily!!!

Its a very difficult grey area for staff when a child is violent towards other children, technically they can't lay hands on to stop them, but morally they need to do something

Ok so I actually work in this field as part of my role and you are completely wrong here. Staff can and should hold children if they are making a setting unsafe. They should do it for as little time as possible and in a safe, painless way for the child. Correct training is needed for schools in this area because the above attitude is actually very damaging!

So far (as far as I know), they’ve tried:
Gentle reinforcing of school values
Positive reinforcement
Going to a senior member of staff
Sitting away from his peers
Taking break time away
Most of the day in isolation

What jumps out at me here is that all the list of things they've tried is reacting to the behaviour (and mostly punishment) they sound like they need the support of a LA behaviour specialist who will advise proactive strategies such as:
Tracking behaviour through the day to find a pattern.
Zones of regulation teaching
Involving occupational therapy to assess potential sensory issues.
Small group social skills work.
Short 1-1 sessions each day with a trusted adult to talk through scenarios that have happened and help him find a different way to deal with things.
Regular regulating activities at his disposal still such as a quiet area, cushions and blankets, fidget toys, putty, headphones.

They can't even begin to talk about exclusion until they show clearly that these have been followed. Please ask for a meeting with the head and class teacher and ask for a proper plan to be made and please don't take him out or reduce his hours without clear evidence of how that will help and how/when his time will be built back up again.

Good luck!

Wow! Your attitude is ‘poor’ @Seashor .

I have been on the receiving end of several 3-5 year olds with difficult behaviour but if nothing is being put into place, which seems clear from the OPs posts, giving up and excluding the child permanently or fixed term, should not even be an option! These days, there has to be steps and procedures followed!

btw, and I think you know this, but the OPs DC is nowhere near ‘pelting chairs’ at others. And in an early years classroom couldn’t furniture have been removed?

From what you say, he could just be struggling with transition to new provision. I am a teacher and also a parent of a child who has complex needs. I'm so sorry no one has followed up on your requests for assessment/support. They have let you down. At state school they are required to provide education to your child whatever his needs - until they have assessed enough to know that another setting would provide better for his needs. Of course protecting other children has to be thought about, but truthfully, as a teacher I have dealt with a lot more than this, and it is only when the head is not putting enough support in place that this happens. (which does seem common due to cuts etc). So a different setting my work better for you - if they are useless. However, it is not fair to move him again when he is probably trying to make this move work. I would suggest continue seeking support, and assessments. has anyone there worked closely with you on his behaviour? biting can be really bad, so does need to stop. I stopped it, as a teacher, by working with the parents, it worked pretty quickly. Children bite because they are regressing, and feel they can't talk to express what is going on in the moment. hitting also, is feeling frustrated, angry, feeling like things aren't fair and needing something in your environment to stop. so they need to find what is happening to trigger the behaviour. and if they feel it is ADHD, or something else going on, then they need to look into that. Does he do this behaviours at home, too? If you wish for assessments, demand the ed psych. visit. otherwise they are just abandoning a child they have duty of care to.

Has the school discussed with you in detail what strategies they have already tried? I really think that the way forward is full face to face discussion and involvement of experts in children’s behaviour . I really think the school needs to put the brakes on and involve you in what is happening.

Sounds like my youngest when he started school only he would mainly hurt himself was rare he lashed out at other kids. But turned out he was autistic and couldn't cope in the environment at the time. OP I would definitely look into whether or not he has some form of special educational needs, there is a lot that can be done to help a child cope with school and shouldn't just be written off. Speak to senco and discuss with them a plan of action and ask for a meeting so that you can all look at ways or possible solutions to try to transition him in, there is a lot more that can be put in place even without an EHCP. Also, ask them if getting him an EHCP may help in funding further interventions that they think he will need. It's possible to get one even without a diagnosis as my son son had one and only got his diagnosis when he was 8. It really sounds to me like he's not coping especially when you have 2 children on opposite ends. Again very much like the situation here. Good luck OP it's a long hard battle but worth it.

My heartfelt goes out to you. I went through this some years ago with my DD now 26. I can say that the system totally failed her however at 4 it is not too late to work with you & your DS. His school journey is just starting, it's a terrible message to give a child or parent.

I would make sure to record everything in a book, who said what & when. For your owner record if nothing else. I also think that the school should be putting in place resources to help your DS, it's not good enough to go straight to exclusion.
It sounds almond like he needs another year in nursery to prepare him emotionally for primary. There's tons of good advice on here. I wish you & your DS luck & love.

Some of these responses are so over the top!
I would recommend first, don't panic. Second arrange a meeting with head teacher and school SENCO to discuss options and strategies for preventing the bad behaviour.
Worth mentioning in your meeting whether keeping him off reception until starting next year when he is 5 is an option too if the strategies weren't working.

Hmm ...if a school is unwilling to work with a child (and no we don't know that for sure but the fact that a class teacher is talking about permanent exclusion after five weeks would imply a lack of structural unwillingness or inexperience) then I'd tread very carefully about discussing removing him and restarting next year. If a school's unwilling to put the right support in place, you will find that as soon as you mention removing him they will run with that above all other options.
If you really feel like he's just too young and next year will magically be different then that's up to you. I'd like to try to work with the school and see some proper strategies put in place first though.

Op I feel for you I really do. I had similar issues with my DS(may baby) we worked very closely with the teacher (she was very experienced and fantastic) I want assessments etc but she said no he is just finding his place. He had been in nursery etc from18mths but school is different as they have to sit. He doesn't sit well.
So in school he was allowed to stand when he needed to at a table at the back but could join his normal table qhen he felt like sitting she allowed him to choose so long as him moving about was not too much or disruptive. She also suggested a sport. We put him in rugby as it is disciplined but lots of energy ran off.

With his biting incidents she noted that both times someone had come up behind him, she suggested getting his hearing checked as she believed it was defensive and low and behold he had glue ear.

This teacher just showed other ways of directing his behaviour. I was pulling my hair out and was on friendly terms with the head master I had seen him so many time.

P5 now and he is doing great and much more settled hang in there!

I’d agree with this. Pulling him out now may just be delaying the issue for a year, also with him already starting reception I wonder if he’d go straight into year one next year. I had similar issues with my son but things didn’t get bad until year one as there’s more demands whereas a lot of reception is still free flow. I knew nothing about Sen when Ds first had issues and a trusted the system, so for example when the school said he was on the waiting list for Ed psych I believed them.

You’ll know your son best but personally I’d leave him where he is and try and get potential diagnosis and things in place, this can take a long time so the sooner you start the better. My son had issues from start of year one, we got asd diagnosis in year 2 but it was half way through year 3 before he got his ehcp, and unfortunatly by then things had escalated too much and I moved him to asd specialist year 4 (another fight).

the main things I’d suggest are

• meeting with the Senco and teacher to discuss issues and what the school is going to out in place
• confirming everything the school tells you in meetings and conversations back to them in writing. Always put at end “if I have misunderstood anything please let me know without delay otherwise I will assume you are in agreement that this is an accurate record of our conversation”
• keep a daily diary. This can help with evidence for ehcp and identifying any trends/triggers. You think you’ll remember stuff but there ends up being so much going on.
• start diagnosis process, what this is and waits will vary from area to area, in my area primary school see paediatrician, only older kids go through cahms.
• start ehcp process, you can request assessment yourself, you will most likely be turned down for assessment as they’ll say the school hadn’t put enough in place yet but you can appeal, all this takes time and you can be collecting more evidence as you go along. I waited until my son had diagnosis as that what school told me at time and I had no reason to doubt but I know better know.
• look on Facebook and see if there are any local ehcp groups or Sen groups. There will be a lot of knowledgable parents on there with local knowledge

its a horrible, horrible situation to be in and unless you’ve been there I don’t think people can appreciate how awful it it. I always used to feel ashamed and embarrassed and also feel sorry for the other children but the reality is you can’t do anything when you’re not there. It’s not simply a case of having a firm word with the child or taking away privileges outside of school which may work for many nt children.

if it is a case of your child just being very young and he settles over time then you can always pull out of the diagnosis process. I’m not really a fan of “wait and see”, it’s a good idea in theory but as the lead times for diagnosis and getting support are so long it just further delays things

good luck on your journey

They were more than 4 by the time they were excluded unfortunately, and had done a lot of damage educationally physiologically and physically to ther classmates by ten

• by then ( not by 10!) I think they were in Y1 by the time they actually got rid

Are you serious @Alltheholidays ? Please! I don’t pander to anyone!! But giving up on children also isn’t the answer! How presumptive to suggest it’s down to parenting! Grow up! My son’s childminder is currently muting a play plan because he’s two and he throws tantrums, is that down to bad parenting? How can you possibly know???

secondly I haven’t said remove all the furniture, but seriously, if chairs are a trigger and a danger, get rid! Early years kids do not need tables and chairs!!! I’ve been an early years teacher for 14 years plus 4 years training…and your job is??

what exactly are you expecting the parents to do? I had similar issues with my son. I managed him out of school, could speak to him about behaviour in school, put boundaries and punishments in place but it didn’t make any difference to what was going on in school things only got worse. We had no issues at home but major issues at school and ultimately there is only so much I can do when I’m not physically there. Even when mine got full time 1-1 32.5 hours this was used to support other kids in the class and yet somehow you are expecting parents to step up and magically solve issues. My sons ms school was very much of the philosophy that they preferred to spend money on things that benefit many children rather than the few so it is pretty dire at Sen but fantastic if your child doesn’t have Sen, maybe it was the school where you were at.

100% agree with this.