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Not to like the Globe Theatre calling me a bitch?

549 replies

EmpressaurusWitchDoesntBurn · 05/10/2022 21:11

OK, not to my face. But following the non-binary Joan of Arc play they’ve shared a ‘terfs stop being transphobic challenge’ referring to anyone who doesn’t believe in gender identity as a bitch.

It’s a shame. I’ve been to some amazing plays at the Globe. But they’ve made their position on feminists pretty clear, so I won’t be going back.

twitter.com/The_Globe/status/1577694873204973569?t=4hr_PKJE3MY0_9-1x3oFvQ&s=19

OP posts:
Discovereads · 07/10/2022 22:15

Passmethewhat · 07/10/2022 21:18

That sounds good but I thought that you were joking when you posted that yesterday. Right, so we have a mission statement, we have a massive following of 4 people and now we need to find someone in the House of Lords?
Any royalty on here?

I wasn’t, even though I knew most people would probably think I was.

So I was a bit hesitant, but went for it anyway because I thought fuck it, what do I have to lose. I am sick of the endless “debates” that go nowhere. I haven’t been an activist since I chained myself to a 250yr old tree in a forest to protest logging…oh gosh, 31 yrs ago? In my eco-warrior days. Perhaps this is my second wind.

So, yes this weekend I have promised to page through HoL members and look up likely candidates. Meanwhile any RUF member is cordially invited to compile the mission statement and ideas we’ve had so far and add any of their own thoughts.

We will need an online home for RUF though at some point- not fair to MN in long run otherwise. Maybe my 18yo tech support DC can help me with that.

RUFISRUF · 07/10/2022 22:18

To all these women saying TW should be allowed into female toilets because they don’t have a problem with it, and actively campaign for this, and believe women should give up their rights to single sex spaces, would you also agree that because some women are anti abortion, every woman should give up their right to abortion? If you want to give other peoples rights away, don’t get upset when other people give your rights away.

Discovereads · 07/10/2022 22:19

@Datun
Are you joking?
you call it ‘'how to lobby'.

The press call it :…handbook for lobbying…

They are one and the same?

Discovereads · 07/10/2022 22:41

Tandora · 07/10/2022 21:22

But they’ve made their position on feminists pretty clear

I’m a feminist. I don’t have a problem with trans people.
if you’ve taken offence it’s not on behalf of feminism. HTH.

Same here. Feminist and no issue with transpeople.

Passmethewhat · 07/10/2022 22:44

Discovereads · 07/10/2022 22:15

I wasn’t, even though I knew most people would probably think I was.

So I was a bit hesitant, but went for it anyway because I thought fuck it, what do I have to lose. I am sick of the endless “debates” that go nowhere. I haven’t been an activist since I chained myself to a 250yr old tree in a forest to protest logging…oh gosh, 31 yrs ago? In my eco-warrior days. Perhaps this is my second wind.

So, yes this weekend I have promised to page through HoL members and look up likely candidates. Meanwhile any RUF member is cordially invited to compile the mission statement and ideas we’ve had so far and add any of their own thoughts.

We will need an online home for RUF though at some point- not fair to MN in long run otherwise. Maybe my 18yo tech support DC can help me with that.

I think that it's important to set out a very clear mission statement.

And an ultimate goal?

The steps we're willing to engage in (such as talks with both sides?) with a neutral 'referee' lol?

That the safety of all women is our paramount concern and that includes transwomen. (Do we wish to take on the cases of transmen too or are they doing ok?).

We would like to listen and we would like to be heard.

What are the primary concerns expressed by women here?
Are we going to address women in sports? Or just Ladies toilets and changing rooms? Freedom of speech (on both sides?).

What are the primary concerns expressed by the TRAs or even just by transwomen who have never been involved in any dispute or action.

I would say that it's important that we do not condone violence or disruption or antagonising or ridiculing or persecution from either side and we will not tolerate it within our group.

Do we go so far as having an opinion on the hormonal therapy in teens and if so, what is that opinion?

Your teenager is probably more than expertly capable of setting up a website so it's a yes from me to that.

I'm not sure, I've never anything like this and I can not believe that this topic is the one I end up dragged into. It's just that I do have a teen daughter, who is straight but she is not remotely concerned about the concerns that the posters here are concerned about.

It's needs to clear and concise (I'm better at being long-winded). It needs to be unbiased. It needs to be in the interests of all concerned.

An incoherent sneery, angry, rant, is not getting anyone anywhere.

Passmethewhat · 07/10/2022 22:48

My gut feeling is that we'd come up against a brick wall in terms of attempting to negotiate even segregated male and female (non trans) wards in psychiatric hospitals as that doesn't even happen now.

When we have an issue with transwomen in a female ward, why don't we have an issue with husbands/partners on a postnatal ward? We need to be clear why? I'm clear why - because men fucking annoy the shit out of me. Transwomen, I have issue with whatsoever.

DdraigGoch · 07/10/2022 22:51

Discovereads · 07/10/2022 17:18

I didn’t lie because I never suggested GCs had never proposed 3rd spaces. But some are unwilling to compromise, you are one quite plainly unwilling to compromise as you’re harping on about PC and rejecting third spaces.

Not all sex offenders are put in PC/solitary simply for being sex offenders. Besides, you say this is good enough for all TW, do you even realise you are also saying it is therefore good enough for all TM? Do you really think that all TM in mens prisons should be kept in solitary confinement (which is known to usually be used as a punishment for prisoners) while the regular murderer and rapist men in the prison are housed in better conditions both physically and for mental welfare? When TM are most likely to be in prison for nonviolent crimes in the first place?

We have a duty of care to everyone.

Transmen are female and are therefore accommodated (with one exception I believe, which is a prisoner in Scotland) on the female estate where they are at no additional risk because both they and their fellow inmates are female.

Discovereads · 07/10/2022 23:01

DdraigGoch · 07/10/2022 22:51

Transmen are female and are therefore accommodated (with one exception I believe, which is a prisoner in Scotland) on the female estate where they are at no additional risk because both they and their fellow inmates are female.

Interesting, and thank you for the info. I wonder if the TM are happy with this state of affairs? It’s safe, but is it validating?

DdraigGoch · 07/10/2022 23:01

Passmethewhat · 07/10/2022 22:48

My gut feeling is that we'd come up against a brick wall in terms of attempting to negotiate even segregated male and female (non trans) wards in psychiatric hospitals as that doesn't even happen now.

When we have an issue with transwomen in a female ward, why don't we have an issue with husbands/partners on a postnatal ward? We need to be clear why? I'm clear why - because men fucking annoy the shit out of me. Transwomen, I have issue with whatsoever.

What's the difference between a man and a transwoman?

Hilarymantelspencilsharpener · 07/10/2022 23:01

Passmethewhat · 07/10/2022 22:48

My gut feeling is that we'd come up against a brick wall in terms of attempting to negotiate even segregated male and female (non trans) wards in psychiatric hospitals as that doesn't even happen now.

When we have an issue with transwomen in a female ward, why don't we have an issue with husbands/partners on a postnatal ward? We need to be clear why? I'm clear why - because men fucking annoy the shit out of me. Transwomen, I have issue with whatsoever.

You only have to read threads on here to know there is many an issue with men on postnatal wards.

N4ish · 07/10/2022 23:04

Discovereads · 07/10/2022 23:01

Interesting, and thank you for the info. I wonder if the TM are happy with this state of affairs? It’s safe, but is it validating?

I’m afraid you sound very naive! No prison is going to risk putting transmen into the male estate, it would be like putting sheep in with wolves.

Discovereads · 07/10/2022 23:05

@Passmethewhat
All very good questions and points in your recent posts. I have copied them to my notes file to work on. I agree on the psych & NHS wards and think every bit is potentially a sticking point.

Discovereads · 07/10/2022 23:06

N4ish · 07/10/2022 23:04

I’m afraid you sound very naive! No prison is going to risk putting transmen into the male estate, it would be like putting sheep in with wolves.

Of course not. Why would think that is what I am thinking of?

DdraigGoch · 07/10/2022 23:06

Discovereads · 07/10/2022 23:01

Interesting, and thank you for the info. I wonder if the TM are happy with this state of affairs? It’s safe, but is it validating?

Frankly I don't care if it's validating. I prioritise safety.

Discovereads · 07/10/2022 23:08

DdraigGoch · 07/10/2022 23:06

Frankly I don't care if it's validating. I prioritise safety.

I prioritise safety too, but care about validation/psychological welfare as well. Bodies and minds are both important.

N4ish · 07/10/2022 23:12

Discovereads · 07/10/2022 23:06

Of course not. Why would think that is what I am thinking of?

Because in your previous post you mentioned TMs in mens prisons? Perhaps I misunderstood?

IcakethereforeIam · 07/10/2022 23:14

Hierarchy of needs, safety first, validation further down the list.

Discovereads · 07/10/2022 23:15

N4ish · 07/10/2022 23:12

Because in your previous post you mentioned TMs in mens prisons? Perhaps I misunderstood?

In a separate secure wing/block. TM wouldn’t be mixing with M in a general population setting. But that’s just one idea and it matters to me that we get feedback on what TM and TW needs are.

RUFISRUF · 08/10/2022 05:11

Discovereads · 07/10/2022 23:08

I prioritise safety too, but care about validation/psychological welfare as well. Bodies and minds are both important.

I think @Discovereads ahd @Passmethewhat the issues we will come up against are, in no particular order :
a lot of the TW using female spaces are not doing it for safety reasons, they are doing it for validation. Third spaces will not provide this. Therefore we must be very clear. The needs of women for privacy, safety and dignity will always trump those of a males need for validation.
women will need a cast iron guarantee, or proof that all the rape, abuse, doxing and death threats will stop. Why would women work with people who are abusing them? And yes, only one side of this debate is doing this. You don’t see groups of women hurling abuse outside trans group meetings do you?
once again, we are expecting women to be kind and do the negotiation and compromise. Women will expect a full list of what benefit this will be to them. and no, just a cessation of the abuse and the chance to be kind is not enough. That is basically the language of abusers.

CantHearMyselfThink · 08/10/2022 08:41

The least few pages of this thread got me thinking (thanks largely to @Discovereads and @Passmethewhat ) that there really isn't a place online to have discussions about important topics without all the noise from the extremes.

I had some time on my hands so I have set up a forum at talkingforward.net to be (hopefully) a place of both confrontation and understanding, with the goal for forward-moving discussions between two seemingly opposing sides and everyone else in the middle - and as much as is possible - avoiding circular arguments.

If anyone is interested in this idea you're invited to start a (possibly the very first) discussion topic there. Please let me be clear this is not a flouncy spin-off forum, just a trial of an idea inspired by the exhaustion I'm sure that many of us feel in forum threads, facebook posts and twitter feuds.

nothingcomestonothing · 08/10/2022 09:23

The needs of women for privacy, safety and dignity will always trump those of a males need for validation.

And this is why no TRA or LGBTQQAI++ organisation will ever, ever engage with what some posters here are naively suggesting. There is no 'middle ground'. TWAW or you're a transphobe. No debate.

You are trying to broker agreement between the person yelling for help whilst drowning and the person on the bank laughing at them.

RUFISRUF · 08/10/2022 09:24

Discovereads · 07/10/2022 23:15

In a separate secure wing/block. TM wouldn’t be mixing with M in a general population setting. But that’s just one idea and it matters to me that we get feedback on what TM and TW needs are.

But If TW are put in general female pop because they are women, surely TM should be put in general male pop as they are men? If mixed sex prisons are safe for females in female prisons that would also apply in male prisons wouldn’t it?

RUFISRUF · 08/10/2022 09:25

nothingcomestonothing · 08/10/2022 09:23

The needs of women for privacy, safety and dignity will always trump those of a males need for validation.

And this is why no TRA or LGBTQQAI++ organisation will ever, ever engage with what some posters here are naively suggesting. There is no 'middle ground'. TWAW or you're a transphobe. No debate.

You are trying to broker agreement between the person yelling for help whilst drowning and the person on the bank laughing at them.

Exactly. That’s what I think women would need extreme demonstrations of good faith from the TRA before we can get anywhere.

Datun · 08/10/2022 09:36

Admirable though it is for people to get involved in arbitration and negotiation between two dissenting factions, for me, in this particular issue, it does not apply.

I don't view this as a clash of rights between two equally valid opponents. It's about the domination of one group over another. Which, by its very nature, involves removing things from that second group which are necessary for their equality.

Personally, I disagree with the very concept of a 'solution'.

The men who want to use women's spaces are using the women in them. It's not the space, it's the women in them that validate their 'gender identity'.

If all the women moved to a different space, the focus would be transferred from the first space to the second space. The first space would be entirely unappealing. It's the presence of the women and girls in it, that is the crucial part.

Whether that space is a prison, or rape refuge, a ward, an online dating service for lesbians, sport or the very concept of what it means to be a woman.

This need for validation is, for many men, a paraphilia. And even those for whom it isn't, using women in this way still a boundary violation. And displays a sense of entitlement that means they can use the presence of women and girls in their own spaces, set up to address sexism, for their own ends. It's sexism on steroids.

So I'm not happy even being asked to consider the concept of solving that problem for these men.

The very most I will offer, is telling them to keep out of women's spaces. And I will simultaneously campaign to expose the sexism underlining the ideology.

My 'solution' is to dismantle the ideology. Not provide a means to make it more acceptable, or accommodate it.

This isn't an 'issue' for women to solve. It's a wholesale attack on their rights. And because we have fought tooth and nail to protect our rights, and have had a modicum of success in certain areas, we are expected to 'compromise' over others.

In order to be 'fair'.

Datun · 08/10/2022 09:48

Discovereads · 07/10/2022 22:19

@Datun
Are you joking?
you call it ‘'how to lobby'.

The press call it :…handbook for lobbying…

They are one and the same?

Well you left out the 'lobbying to remove parental consent over significant aspects of children’s lives.'

but you saying it's exactly the same as 'lobbying for trans youth', gets no argument from me.