What do you count as a 'professional' job?

[Llamapalma]

My DSis and I have been arguing this tonight.

What in your opinion counts as a 'professional' job?

Certain wage? Anyone who works in an office? Anyone who has to dress smart? Certain job titles?

One that has a professional body, and which requires registration and a degree/masters in order to enter the field.

*Degree/masters in that field

Agreed, whiskersPete
Seems that some people are harping back to the 90s caricature of suit, briefcase, (giant) mobile phone, drinking in wine bars, etc.
This then makes recruitment consultants ‘professionals’ when in fact a huge majority of them are the most unprofessional people imaginable

A role that requires a degree or equivalent and professional registration with a professional body.

This sounds like a good definition.

Things like doctors, teachers, lawyers, dentists etc.

Not things like nurses, TAs, dental assistants etc as you never needed to go to university to do these (probably changed now).

I always think of getting your passport signed.
It has to be a professional and gives a list of professions that are acceptable.

Something that involves getting a professional qualification to do it surely? Eg. Chartered Accountant, Landscape Architect, Engineer etc... Or A teacher who has a PGCE.

Yep that's what I think too.

A professional has membership of a professional body and qualifications awarded by that body. They can also be thrown out of that body if they behave unprofessionally and complaints can be made to that body. So Accountants, Lawyers, Doctors, Nurses, Midwives, Surveyors etc.

I tend not to use the term, it's a bit outdated and of little use - unless you're on Mumsnet where I'm sure it will be used to prop up one group's sense of superiority over another.😂

A professional has to subscribe to a professional body in order to maintain their qualification and in return gets extra letters after their name to add to their degree/s.
They get a very dull monthly professional journal, which they don't read except for the job ads in the back.
This journal has tedious articles written by try-hards, and if you're really unlucky might have a fairly unfunny cartoon. There will be a letters page for retired professionals to deplore the younger ones.
On an annual basis you get an election to a committee of the professional body. Don't even think of standing and if you actually know a member or someone who aspires to be one then please, get a life.

One that you can be "chartered" for. Or need a degree and qualification to get into. So traditionally things like accountant, lawyer, doctor but more recently things like engineering, marketing, purchasing and supply which you can sit an exam for a postgrad qualification at some Chartered Institute. Or something like social work.

That's not the same - obviously - as acting in a professional manner. You can be the most professional shop assistant, mechanic or waiter in the world, but it's not a "profession".

Not things like nurses, TAs, dental assistants etc as you never needed to go to university to do these (probably changed now).

Err.... nurses require a professional qualification and registration with the NMC. They also have to submit evidence of CPD in order to renew their registration. They can be struck off for professional misconduct.

I don't know about you but I'd far rather be cared for by a fully registered nurse who produces evidence they are up to date with modern medicine and current practice and is monitored by their professional body.

Of course nurses need to go to University and get a degree 😂

They are also listed on the list of professionals that can sign passport signs.

A professional has to subscribe to a professional body in order to maintain their qualification and in return gets extra letters after their name to add to their degree/s.

Not true.

Seriously, there is an actual definition provided by the national office for statistics. They use the Standard Occupational classifications (SOC) these are also used by universities when gathering statistics on what their graduates do.

Something that you have to be formally qualified to do.

That's different from career roles, which you need experience and qualifications for

Oh dear.

You do realise nurses need a university degree AND that they can sign your passport if needed?

One that you can be "chartered" for.

Not true

Something like teacher, doctor, lawyer, dentist. I'm not sure if I'd count any office worker? My first thought was no but then now I think about it I'm not at all sure why or whether I'm right about this!

Is this what you mean?

www.ons.gov.uk/methodology/classificationsandstandards/standardoccupationalclassificationsoc/soc2020/soc2020volume1structureanddescriptionsofunitgroups

They have a broad definition for 'professional occupations': A degree or equivalent qualification, with some occupations requiring postgraduate qualifications and/or a formal period of experience-related training.

Doesn't there have to be a bit of 'altruistic' in the definition?

And a code of ethics?

So take nursing.

When I first worked for the NHS nurses could be

SRN / RGN /RGHN
SEN
Auxiliary

None of them took degrees (that was just coming in)

The 'State Registered' or 'Registered - type of nurse' did three years training, possibly longer if they had done a pre nursing course.

SEN - did a 2 year course, they worked as nurses but could not progress to higher levels such as sister, senior sister etc.

Auxiliary - had no or very little training

RGN and other 'registered' nurses have at least a diploma but under the latest training they have to take a degree.

You no longer get SEN nurses, some converted as part of various upgrade courses, others worked until retirement. You might get the odd one still around.

Auxiliary also no longer exists, HCA have taken their place and they take level 2 and level 3 training courses.

So if you go for:

Highly trained
Professional body that you need to stay 'in good standing' with or you cannot work
Code of ethics

Then nursing is a Profession, but in the past it wasn't, or wasn't entirely.

Nurses now work in much wider roles than they used to, they are involved in research and publish work in journals, not things nurses training in the 1960s / 1970s would do.

Is this what you mean?

https://www.ons.gov.uk/methodology/classificationsandstandards/standardoccupationalclassificationsoc/soc2020/soc2020volume1structureanddescriptionsofunitgroups

They have a broad definition for 'professional occupations': A degree or equivalent qualification, with some occupations requiring postgraduate qualifications and/or a formal period of experience-related training.

Yep.
This is what's used by those of us who need to be able to define professional occupations.

Doesn't there have to be a bit of 'altruistic' in the definition?

I don't think so. To take an extreme stereotype, a corporate lawyer would definitely fill the various criteria for being a 'professional' but wouldn't need a shred of altruism.
Maybe you're thinking more of 'vocations'?

In addition to qualifications and membership of a professional body I'd say that being a member of a profession requires you to apply relevant professional standards outside of your work. Eg, a doctor is required to help if there is a medical emergency, lawyers must act honestly and in the best interests of their client, even if it conflicts with their own personal influence. Suspect similar standards of behaviour are expected of engineers, accountants etc. Presumably also teachers and nurses so they would also be professions.

• own personal interests

As a nurse this thread makes me quite sad!

You do know that nursing requires a degree, a professional registration and that we can sign passports 😂

@Noteverybodylives what do you do? Are you a professional?