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AIBU?

And now Italy

138 replies

Pampapuddlepoose · 26/09/2022 15:43

Italy has just voted in it's most right wing prime minister since Muesli.

IANBU - This whole thing is starting to look scarily like the build up to WW2
AIBU - Stop worrying and go and do something useful.

I'm going to stop reading/watching the news. It's scaring me and I can't fk anything about if anyway. I'm not trying to scaremongering, I'd just like some other opinions.

OP posts:
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Am I being unreasonable?

465 votes. Final results.

POLL
You are being unreasonable
57%
You are NOT being unreasonable
43%
CurseOfBigness · 27/09/2022 15:20

Noorandapples · 26/09/2022 16:48

I think what makes her right wing is her anti immigration stance, right? Unfortunately that's going to get more popular across the board with more people fleeing war, floods etc and uncertainty with energy and food shortages. Countries will start panicking and close up very soon.

But I think that’s also why @Pampapuddlepoose is reasonable to have some concern.

Resource shortages can lead to war…

But before that stage they do panic and close up.

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Kissingfrogs25 · 27/09/2022 15:29

Crunchingleaf · 27/09/2022 15:15

What has changed in peoples life’s to cause this shift in voting. How did it happen in a country like Sweden that they were more then welcoming to all sorts of immigration. Why have people started to listen to the voices coming from far right parties instead of dismissing them like they would have always done? Has there been any changes in society that is affecting people who used to vote left or centre?
Dismissing people as racist isn’t going to help. It will only entrench people in their views.

And surely that is the most important question
rather than insults.
What changed?
How did one of the most tolerant, open hearted countries in the world end up having such a change of heart?
What happened?

That is why I hate the closed answers - the simplistic slurs that they are just racists full stop. It’s far more complex than that. Discussions and solutions are needed, and essentially consensus needs to be found in the U.K. and Sweden and many western countries.

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Fladdermus · 27/09/2022 15:46

Crunchingleaf · 27/09/2022 15:15

What has changed in peoples life’s to cause this shift in voting. How did it happen in a country like Sweden that they were more then welcoming to all sorts of immigration. Why have people started to listen to the voices coming from far right parties instead of dismissing them like they would have always done? Has there been any changes in society that is affecting people who used to vote left or centre?
Dismissing people as racist isn’t going to help. It will only entrench people in their views.

One thing is a peculiarity of the voting system. If you look at this map www.aftonbladet.se/valresultat2022/ you can see that the Socialdemokraterna, the most traditionally swedish party, still got the largest percentage of the vote in every single region. But with proportional representation it doesn't translate to having a majority despite have more votes than any other party.

You can also use the map to look at which areas voted for which party and that tells an old story. Malmö, which has the hardest time with mass immigration, had a pretty low vote for SD. But other kommuns in the region which are much more rural and have less immigrants had high SD votes. Just like the campaign advert I linked above, it's about fear and exploiting that fear.

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Crunchingleaf · 27/09/2022 17:01

A happy, harmonious society doesn’t fall for fear mongering after watching a couple ads from a political party. I remember so many analysts dismissing those who voted for Trumps as racists. However, other analysts found that those who voted for Trump were disenfranchised and had been left behind by wealthier parts of USA. Obviously Trump was never the answer, but there are definitely huge problems in that society. The commentary here where I live from commentators was that Brexit was another racist vote. But again it’s a country where the wealthy are getting wealthier and many are struggling to meet ends meet. Services aren’t as good as they used to be, people are struggling to buy homes, wages in some industries have stagnated, I am sure others could give a more in depth view about all the different reasons behind the vote.
If you scratch the surface you will find that it’s far more likely that the Swedes voted this way for many reasons and calling racism is a lazy option that is dismissing what is happening in peoples lives.

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Desmorelda · 27/09/2022 17:23

@Crunchingleaf agree that much of the red wall voted to leave the EU and had suffered for years from lack of decent investment, economic stagnation outside the main cities etc. But most of the affluent south (apart from London and other cities) also wanted to leave. Areas that were doing well so the explanation isn't that simple and is multifactorial...

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Softplayhooray · 27/09/2022 17:25

Love the typo from Mussolini to Muesli OP! It is scary but I'm holding on to my Italian friend's comment: 'they only last a year in Italy anyway!' God knows we need her to be right!

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tihodettoche · 27/09/2022 18:03

Italian here (although been in the UK for nearly 10 years).

OP don't worry about the new government. All the ones Italy had before lasted less than 2 years on average! Also, only 63% of the population voted.

As for Italy leaving the EU? Ain't going to happen. Italians complain a lot but if a referendum was called I doubt that most would even turn up to vote.

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BerriesOnTop · 27/09/2022 18:32

However, other analysts found that those who voted for Trump were disenfranchised and had been left behind by wealthier parts of USA. Obviously Trump was never the answer, but there are definitely huge problems in that society

It was the answer for his base, blue collar wages were on the rise due to labour shortage (lower immigration for one) and continued support for industry (eg fracking). This is normal, ppl always vote for their personal interests which is entirely understandable

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Kissingfrogs25 · 27/09/2022 18:39

Crunchingleaf · 27/09/2022 17:01

A happy, harmonious society doesn’t fall for fear mongering after watching a couple ads from a political party. I remember so many analysts dismissing those who voted for Trumps as racists. However, other analysts found that those who voted for Trump were disenfranchised and had been left behind by wealthier parts of USA. Obviously Trump was never the answer, but there are definitely huge problems in that society. The commentary here where I live from commentators was that Brexit was another racist vote. But again it’s a country where the wealthy are getting wealthier and many are struggling to meet ends meet. Services aren’t as good as they used to be, people are struggling to buy homes, wages in some industries have stagnated, I am sure others could give a more in depth view about all the different reasons behind the vote.
If you scratch the surface you will find that it’s far more likely that the Swedes voted this way for many reasons and calling racism is a lazy option that is dismissing what is happening in peoples lives.

Many very wealthy people voted leave as well, it’s about independence and self direction, governance not poverty. The old trope that it was only the uneducated that voted leave was proven false many years. Some of the most highly educated, indeed philosophical friends I know voted leave crunchy

Many people simply do not want to live in a huge super state where they feel voiceless and ignored. They want accountability. True accountability. So I agree with you about feeling disenfranchised but by globalisation and super states - not in their communities or poverty necessarily.

Italy have the most enormous economic problems, and infrastructure issues - decades of neglect and general malaise. As pp said they can’t even be bothered to vote. I feel more worried not less, it sounds very much like hopelessness to me. I hope she can turn things around, and it works out for Italy. It’s a magnificent country.

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Crunchingleaf · 27/09/2022 18:57

@Kissingfrogs25 I agree totally. I was being lazy by not describing all the various reasons people had. I suppose the point I was trying to make is it gets you absolutely nowhere characterising an election result as racism. People usually have valid reasons for voting the way they do even if we disagree with the outcome.

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Kissingfrogs25 · 27/09/2022 20:53

Crunchingleaf · 27/09/2022 18:57

@Kissingfrogs25 I agree totally. I was being lazy by not describing all the various reasons people had. I suppose the point I was trying to make is it gets you absolutely nowhere characterising an election result as racism. People usually have valid reasons for voting the way they do even if we disagree with the outcome.

Yes agreed. And screaming racism every time just silences. It’s unhelpful. If we are to find solutions then we need to listen to all points of view - even unpalatable ones - as we used to do. Back in the day when we lived in civilised times and everyone could be heard.

What we can see is a natural reaction to lots of unplanned change, much of the change was accepted in good faith and with an open heart for a very long time. Mass movement of people, globalisation and vast inequality world wide of basic living conditions are partially to blame, but also governments that shy away from the hard decisions, and come across as incapable of protecting their own countries from a minority that wish to exploit the generosity and the system.

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Alexandra2001 · 27/09/2022 21:44

Kissingfrogs25 · 27/09/2022 18:39

Many very wealthy people voted leave as well, it’s about independence and self direction, governance not poverty. The old trope that it was only the uneducated that voted leave was proven false many years. Some of the most highly educated, indeed philosophical friends I know voted leave crunchy

Many people simply do not want to live in a huge super state where they feel voiceless and ignored. They want accountability. True accountability. So I agree with you about feeling disenfranchised but by globalisation and super states - not in their communities or poverty necessarily.

Italy have the most enormous economic problems, and infrastructure issues - decades of neglect and general malaise. As pp said they can’t even be bothered to vote. I feel more worried not less, it sounds very much like hopelessness to me. I hope she can turn things around, and it works out for Italy. It’s a magnificent country.

Study after study, shows education and employment was a determining factor in leave or remain BUT obviously not the only one, as you say plenty of x over.

On accountability, whats accountable about the way Truss was elected or the total about turn she has done on economic policy and lord along knows what else...
We are stuck with this for the next 2 years, she has zero mandate for what she doing & the EU certain had nothing like that sway over our lives, nothing at all.

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Kissingfrogs25 · 28/09/2022 17:02

Alexandra2001 · 27/09/2022 21:44

Study after study, shows education and employment was a determining factor in leave or remain BUT obviously not the only one, as you say plenty of x over.

On accountability, whats accountable about the way Truss was elected or the total about turn she has done on economic policy and lord along knows what else...
We are stuck with this for the next 2 years, she has zero mandate for what she doing & the EU certain had nothing like that sway over our lives, nothing at all.

The great news is that as a true democracy we can kick out Truss in eighteen months if we choose to, we can vote anyway we want to and the results will be respected.

Do you have any idea how one would remove Ursula von der Leyen?

I will give you the quickest answer, you can't. She can not be removed.
Ditto for the rest of the faceless bureaucrats working behind the scenes in Brussels, no accountability whatsoever. Even the ways she was appointed was entirely opaque.

So please don't tell me it is the same. It is nothing like the same. The whole EU power structure is built behind closed doors. That was the reason why so many true democrats decided to leave. How can so much concentrated power be so lacking in transparency and accountability. It is dangerous.

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