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AIBU?

And now Italy

138 replies

Pampapuddlepoose · 26/09/2022 15:43

Italy has just voted in it's most right wing prime minister since Muesli.

IANBU - This whole thing is starting to look scarily like the build up to WW2
AIBU - Stop worrying and go and do something useful.

I'm going to stop reading/watching the news. It's scaring me and I can't fk anything about if anyway. I'm not trying to scaremongering, I'd just like some other opinions.

OP posts:
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Am I being unreasonable?

465 votes. Final results.

POLL
You are being unreasonable
57%
You are NOT being unreasonable
43%
MotherofPearl · 26/09/2022 20:23

jetadore · 26/09/2022 18:05

First they came for the granola…

Grin
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Crankley · 26/09/2022 20:26

Yum, Muesli.

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Alexandra2001 · 26/09/2022 20:48

FOJN · 26/09/2022 20:03

If your referring to Stalin, he wasn't left wing, he wasn't even a communist, he was a murderous dictator who killed anyone from either side who he deemed as a threat, including communists.

He was leader of the Communist Party, you might not like his interpretation of communism but presumably we can agree he wasn't right wing.

Joseph Stalin - Communist - estimated death toll 20 million
Mao Zedong - Communist - estimated death toll 45 million
Pol Pot - Communist - estimated death toll 2 million

I think it's reasonable to describe them all as despots but their political leanings are extreme left. When we consider Hitler too it only proves what many on this thread have already said; political extremism of any description is dangerous. My point is that extremism is not exclusive to the right of the political spectrum.

I don't disagree on extremism, Hitler's National Socialist Party had its roots in Marxism too.
Stalin was neither left or right wing, he was a Stalinist, just as Hitler wasn't right or left wing, he was a Nazi.

My point is these monsters used left or right ideology to gain power, but once there, any ideology they ever had went out the window and all that mattered was staying in power.

Might be better not to use the term Right or Left wing when talking about mass murderers.

Oh and i'm not a communist, any more than you are a fascist.

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BerriesOnTop · 27/09/2022 04:43

briancormorant · 26/09/2022 17:58

It is the 'open door' immigration policy that is hard for many to accept.
Contrasting with natural humanitarian feelings is the question: "Why if you live in such a bloody awful country such as Albania or Syria do you not stay and work to put right"?
Sure, it will be hard. Many places did it. France had a revolution as did Ireland. So have many others.
Do the patriotic thing. Go back and fight for your countries.
See Ukraine right now!!

Kind of different when you can review applications and pick who you want to bring from refugee camps and just being told to accept whoever shows up at the border. No one wants a bunch of young men, who are statistically more likely to cause trouble. I’m surprised EU countries put up with it as long as they did tbh

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Rosehugger · 27/09/2022 05:12

I think it's concerning and something to keep an eye on. She seems nice looking and charismatic which leads people to make comments like "She's not that right wing".

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NotABeliever · 27/09/2022 05:16

It's crap for Italy that Meloni got in. It's not a concern for the rest of Europe.
I disagree with almost everything she stands for (curb LGBTQ+ rights, tough on immigration, Eurosceptic, etc) but personally I think some of our current government's policies are more right wing - see Rwanda.

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Dishh · 27/09/2022 05:27

@Alexandra2001

My point is these monsters used left or right ideology to gain power, but once there, any ideology they ever had went out the window and all that mattered was staying in power.

I agree with this. Authoritarianism comes in many flavours. In any case, historians don't seem to agree on the ideology of Stalin: it seemed over time he moved on the spectrum.

As to Meloni, I think it's wise to consider the world at large and not simply events in Italy. Italy is only one country that is moving towards more conservative government; there are others following. Look at who is celebrating Meloni's win. It might give you pause.

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Dishh · 27/09/2022 05:29

And to add: the skepticism on this thread alone that this might lead to a bigger issue is problematic in itself.

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Rosehugger · 27/09/2022 05:39

Yep.

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maddening · 27/09/2022 07:12

Italy have had a hard time in the EU, they lost out financially joining the euro currency, they are not as rich as France or Germany so it is not surprising they are looking for a party that is more nationalistic.

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notimagain · 27/09/2022 07:46

NotABeliever · 27/09/2022 05:16

It's crap for Italy that Meloni got in. It's not a concern for the rest of Europe.
I disagree with almost everything she stands for (curb LGBTQ+ rights, tough on immigration, Eurosceptic, etc) but personally I think some of our current government's policies are more right wing - see Rwanda.

Very much agree.

Many in the UK look at some overseas politicians and their stated policies and proudly say " hard right wing, no chance anybody like that would be elected here" without doing a compare and contrast with what's being done domestically.

Madame Le Pen and the RN in France are another example...Gasps of horror from many in the UK at her possibly winning the presidential election recently but following her and her party's rebranding and repositioning in recent years you'll find in many areas there's not much to choose between the RNs policies and some of those of the UK current government.

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Kissingfrogs25 · 27/09/2022 07:54

NotABeliever · 27/09/2022 05:16

It's crap for Italy that Meloni got in. It's not a concern for the rest of Europe.
I disagree with almost everything she stands for (curb LGBTQ+ rights, tough on immigration, Eurosceptic, etc) but personally I think some of our current government's policies are more right wing - see Rwanda.

I am not the rest of the EU agree with you. Italy haven't been able to vote for years and years, I am not surprised by this result. Sweden will be next, followed by France.

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Alexandra2001 · 27/09/2022 08:01

Kissingfrogs25 · 27/09/2022 07:54

I am not the rest of the EU agree with you. Italy haven't been able to vote for years and years, I am not surprised by this result. Sweden will be next, followed by France.

2018 isn't years and years.
Sweden has only just had an election and went centre right, France had an election a few weeks ago and went centre, Macron got in and RN/Le Pen despite having to mellow policies, lost heavily.

A survey in june 22, showed support for the EU has increased across its members.

Do you even follow european politics in your world?

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maranella · 27/09/2022 08:02

The rise of the so called far right is the consequence of the loony extremists of the left.

So true.

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maranella · 27/09/2022 08:03

Also, if you're so worried OP, can you tell us all which, of Giorgia Meloni's policies, you find so hard to swallow? Seriously, I'd love to know. I bet you can't even tell us what they are!

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Alexandra2001 · 27/09/2022 08:07

maranella · 27/09/2022 08:02

The rise of the so called far right is the consequence of the loony extremists of the left.

So true.

what left wing extremist policies are those? can you name them or any extreme left Govt in the EU? which ext left wing govt preceded the Truss administration?

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Kissingfrogs25 · 27/09/2022 08:23

Corbyn was very far left and was the leader of the Labour party for years very recently. As an example.
He didn't win, thank goodness, but Jezza had a great deal of support from somewhere.

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Kissingfrogs25 · 27/09/2022 08:33

Alexandra2001 · 27/09/2022 08:01

2018 isn't years and years.
Sweden has only just had an election and went centre right, France had an election a few weeks ago and went centre, Macron got in and RN/Le Pen despite having to mellow policies, lost heavily.

A survey in june 22, showed support for the EU has increased across its members.

Do you even follow european politics in your world?

Yes thanks I do know my politics! You are however clearly struggling. Especially when it comes to Italy and their democratic deficit.

Italy has been rendered a technocracy for many decades on and off, not since 2018. You need to do your research.

What we are seeing in Sweden and France is a very clear pattern of increase in voter confidence and voting right wing, and even far right parties. It is extremely clear that Europe is swinging much more to the right. We see the same pattern in Poland, Hungary and now Italy. Netherlands are very anti EU and Greece of course, so what we are seeing now are the winds of change blowing gently across the continent. It won't happen immediately, but there is a distinct and growing shift, to say otherwise is disingenuous and just plain wrong.

You say you know politics but Italy have had a technocratic government on and off for decades.

"Draghi is the fourth technocrat to lead an Italian government since 1993. He follows Mario Monti, a former member of the European Commission who was prime minister between 2011 and 2013. Before him came Lamberto Dini, a former executive director of the International Monetary Fund (1995-1996) and Carlo Azeglio Ciampi, former governor of the Bank of Italy (1993-1994)"

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maranella · 27/09/2022 08:35

@Alexandra2001 you're telling me that you don't think Jeremy Corbyn was loony left? He was the most hard left leader that the Labour party has had in decades and he was the alternative choice at the last GE, so no wonder the Conservatives got in again.

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Geamhradh · 27/09/2022 08:46

Melassa · 26/09/2022 18:43

Draghi was hugely popular and it wasn’t him in power during the pandemic, it was Conte.

Many people didn’t bother voting as the little bickering politicians brought down the government and the only credible person in parliament. All the rest are complete clowns and people are fed up with them so have abstained from voting. The ones who did vote in droves were the older demographic and “angry young men” like DP’s friend’s son whose rebellion phase involves becoming a rabid racist.

I was out much of the day yesterday and there were very few people at the polling booths. It was one of the lowest turnouts in years.

Meloni is a serial liar who adjusts her
lie based on the audience. Much like Boris I suppose. One silver lining is that fuckface Salvini’s party got trounced. We’ll see how long this lasts, Meloni is a skilled liar but not capable of running an engine, let alone a country. I suppose it depends on who is in the wings subsidising her and advising her. Hate and bigotry has deep pockets, as we’ve seen elsewhere.

Perfect summary, and well said.

@Pampapuddlepoose I didn't vote in your AIBU because GM won't be capable of doing any of the things she's promised. Italy won't leave the EU. GM will last about as long as the others. If she's lucky.

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Geamhradh · 27/09/2022 08:50

maddening · 27/09/2022 07:12

Italy have had a hard time in the EU, they lost out financially joining the euro currency, they are not as rich as France or Germany so it is not surprising they are looking for a party that is more nationalistic.

The south has also had much of its infrastructure bankrolled by the EU. There's not a town without "built by EU funds" on a blue sign (including most schools) (and this includes paying "expert" external teachers to do courses in languages and technology among other things) The EU sceptics forget all of this when it suits.

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Alexandra2001 · 27/09/2022 08:54

@maranella Corbyn was never in power and certainly wasn't in the Italian Govt pre Meloni.

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VillanellesCoat · 27/09/2022 08:59

jetadore · 26/09/2022 18:05

First they came for the granola…

😂😂😂

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notimagain · 27/09/2022 09:18

What we are seeing in Sweden and France is a very clear pattern of increase in voter confidence and voting right wing, and even far right parties.

As I see it, in France, in very simple terms, Madame Le Pen basically kicked the Far Right head bangers out of her party (the likes of Florian Philippot)
and then nicked votes from Les Republicians to achieve the result she got in the presidentials. She's nowadays right of centre to some extent but currently at least not maybe as extreme right as some, particularly in the UK media, like to portray her..

TBH I suspect she could move to the UK, tick the required boxes and would fit right in with a lot of Tories, though these days perhaps not Eurosceptical enough for many in the ERG.

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BloodyHellKen · 27/09/2022 09:35

You are being unreasonable @Pampapuddlepoose and should definitely step away from the news if it upsets you that much. Far right seems to be a term banded around these days to mean anyone right of centre and as such it's lost all it's meaning.

Similarly last week Evan Davis was on PM mewling about the Swedish election with its 'far right' win and commiserating himself that at least the Danes still have a left wing government. What he neglected to mention is that unlike Sweden, in Denmark all refugees have to be down to their last pennies before they get any help from the state (I think they've even starting removing some back to safe areas too). If you are a refugee in Denmark you have to pay for yourself so that is presumably one of the reasons no populist/right wing parties have taken over govt. As a result Denmark has a very small number of refugees and the majority of Danish people presumably are happy about this situation. Compare this to Sweden who have accepted many refugees and there have been well publicised violence/clashes as a result.

I don't follow Italian politics but presumably the Italian people are similarly unamused about their govt as the Swedes are. Italy has accepted many refugees which has caused local tensions. Also they had a pretty rough pandemic which won't have helped.

BTW I'm not saying I support this to please don't start piling on about how I hate refugees. I am just surmising from what I see in the news about what I think is happening and why.

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