To think a lot of women are worse off than 50 years ago?

[Tsort]

A certain type of person is nostalgic for the old days when ‘men were men, and women were women’. I am not. However, it must be noted that at the time when women were expected to be docile acquiescent homemakers, men were expected to foot the bill. They paid for dinner, sorted the mortgage and brought home the bacon. Not for me, but a fair division of labour.

Now, we have a generation of women who ‘pay their way’, go Dutch and refuse to let men pay for them as they don’t want to be indebted. Grand.

But, these same women also do the lion’s share of housework, because ‘men don’t see it’ and shoulder the emotional labour because ‘that’s just the way men are’.

So, women are now shouldering some of the traditionally male burdens while the traditional female burdens have remained firmly in place. How is this an improvement for women? And why do so many tolerate it? This is a profound misunderstanding of feminism and it hurts so many of us.

Well considering he actively does not want me to work because he wants me to do all the other things and do every school pick up I'd call him out on the inconsistency.

I choose what’s what for my family. It’s amazing and I recommend it. Exactly, it's what we do and what I want everyone to do.

yes, I've said our wider family on both sides are mostly this way. Some of the women also work full-time but the rest of the family provide the childcare so we don't need to employ anyone.

Mumsnet is completely unlike real life in that posters truly, honestly believe that there is no difference between men and women bar their physical bodies. And that any behavioural or character differences can be put down to ‘societal conditioning’ or a trend that can be disproved with ‘well my son hates sport and loves housework, so that’s a load of rubbish.’

But then on another thread you have ‘my mood has totally changed since the menopause AIBU’ and posters are suddenly receptive to personalities being controlled by hormones after all.

@TinaPoopsy52

Oh yes, hormones influence behaviour, but only very slightly. I’m objecting to your exaggeration:
Hormones hugely influence behaviours.

No, they really don’t hugely influence behaviour. There’s no scientific basis for this. We are all compis mentis and able to choose our actions and behaviour (barring any hormonal disorder/medical condition).

Projecting what?

2 WOHP
Shared CC, work and domestic tasks.

The difference between now and 50 years ago is that we have more choices. People are also more understanding about divorce and single parents etc. I agree a lot of men need to up their game when it comes to housework and childcare though.

Yip and so you have to stay looking “fantastic” to keep your meal ticket? Do you know hall of all marriages end in divorce?

that’s not to say yours will of course but I would hate to be in an unequal relationship. To feel I had to keep looking pretty to keep my money and status. No thanks.

@Discovereads

This is a load of bs. There’s virtually no evidence for female warriors. The closest is the supposed and sparse Viking maidens buried with weapons, but how does that prove they were warriors?

Yours is a modern feminist rewriting that simply isn’t reality. I don’t know why you would even pretend otherwise. How in the hell do you think female warriors were engaging with primitive weapons in warfare greatly based in physical strength with men who were far superior in physical strength? This goes double for pre history. Why does no written history ever record it ever happening?

Your ideas are all based in fantastical theories. Seriously how many women do you know that could seriously engage in physical fights and war with men successfully (meaning without guns).

Your idea of thousands of female warriors graves being found is laughable and complete fantasy.

Exactly, what’s sad is that the great majority of women IN THE WORLD (including in the 70’s) are not white women living in Western Europe or the US. It’s women of color, most often from poor background, in still restrictive & oppressive countries in 2022, let alone then.

But every time someone makes a post about women being better off “back when” on Mumsnet, they seem to forget most of the female population!

So you don’t believe the menopause threads on here about major mood changes, loss of maternal feeling etc? They’re making it up?

Yeah I know that, and no I don't have to but I will because stress is very ageing.

@TinaPoopsy52
And all the tribes that were first contacted in colonial times that lives in a pre historical type way had strong gender roles

Well yes as westerners contacted other tribes and cultures, they did indeed have strong gender roles too. They just weren’t all the same gender roles that western culture had.

Ethiopia- female warriors
Dahomy- female warriors
Aka tribe- men do the child care while the women hunt
Narragansett- female farmers/hunters
Crow, Sioux,Iroquois, Cheyenne- female warriors
Nepal- women having many husbands
Mosuo- matriarchy- women ruling
BriBri- only women can lead religion and only women can own land
Most of China- cooking family meals is mens work

these are just off the top of my head. There are many more.

Your reading comprehension is such that you think I want to go back to a time for which I’ve explicitly stated I’m not nostalgic. I’m not the one who needs to get a grip.

50 years is 72. Some people on here seem to be mixing it up with the 50s.

Is my life better than my mum's?
She didn't get into grammar school, so did secondary modern. Fought to stay on until 16. Got taught stereotypically female skills. Steered in to secretarial work.
Didn't have much life/ male experience. Married young.
Wasn't allowed mortgage in her name.
Gave up work to have us, then relied on husband's piss poor wage. No holidays, new clothes, nothing.
Eventually went to work again full time in my teens. Still did all housework.

My life
No graMmar schools when I went. Did a levels/ uni/ good job.
Did what I wanted, snagged who I pleased. Chose well.
Married at 25.
2 wages coming in. Didn't give up work when kids were born. Got to have the holidays, nice things and a bigger house. Share chores.

So in my case, I definitely have it better. Partly because I was driven by NOT wanting a life like my mum.

I see - a man who doesn’t want you to work because he wants you to be cleaning the house. Wow he sounds like a prince.

so a lot of your family have these strict gender roles - that’s understandable that you have been socialised this way. no one is saying it’s wrong not to work but it’s certainly an unequal relationship. If you think it’s a desirable way to run things, consider what you (and your family) would really (honestly) think of a man who deliberately married a woman who was a “provider” so he could never work again. If your attitude is different to him then you’re not really ok with that.

@Discovereads

Nope they hugely influence behaviour, far more than “slightly”. You brought up all animals - do you realise suppose that the aggressive duelling for female partners male bucks (and others) do isn’t influenced by hormones. That they actually have free choice in the matter. That’s deluded.

Humans too are greatly influenced by hormones and the wider gap between them in sex the greater difference in behaviour overall. That’s why so many more men are in prison or violent or just risk takers (in a good or bad way) than women. Testosterone - ie a hormone. It’s the same for everything.

You like to think you or humans (or bizzarely other animals) can escape that but they can’t. Doesn’t mean we need to live like cavemen but we will always have gendered beahviour due to our hormones. That’s just the reality anyone who denies it lives in a fantasy land.

Menopause is a transition phase during which for some women the hormones become unbalanced and this causes physical side effects like hot flashes and night what’s and also affects their mood- which lets be clear mood and feelings are not behaviours.

www.unodc.org/unodc/frontpage/2021/November/unodc-research_-2020-saw-every-11-minutes-a-woman-or-girl-being-killed-by-someone-in-their-family.html

www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/11/violence-against-women-femicide-census/

www.femicidecensus.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/010998-2020-Femicide-Report_V2.pdf

Mood definitely affects behaviour. Hence why we act different when happy, sad, angry.

Okay you could be right that it's not equal, perhaps he's saying that to make me feel better.
Still preferable to working full-time.
Maybe I'm selfishly taking advantage.
But it's what we both want so I guess I'm just very fortunate. I am grateful, every single day, and so happy about it all.

But your points are valid.

Wait a minute, so he's out of order, or I am? Or both?

Is he exploiting me or am I exploiting him? In your opinion.

the aggressive duelling for female partners male bucks (and others) do isn’t influenced by hormones. That they actually have free choice in the matter.

Ah, I see now you are confusing hormones with instincts. Setting aside the fact that no choice is ever free, yes many animals do exercise choice. For every two males butting heads…there will be other males off to one side chewing grass and staring at the clouds.

That’s why so many more men are in prison or violent or just risk takers (in a good or bad way) than women.

Testosterone doesn’t make men rape and murder. It’s not as big of an influence as you say.

I’m a Black African immigrant. As is fairly clear from my posting history. So, no, my focus isn’t white women living in Western Europe. The fact that you assumed it was says considerably more about your default assumptions than it does about mine.

@keepmywifesnameoutchagoddammouth

I genuinely hope you've got the resilience to cope with any stressful events that come your way.

Its not possible to live a life entirely free of stress.

Bereavement, financial worries, children not coping/being bullied/mh issues. I could go on.

Looking great won't help you cope