To think a lot of women are worse off than 50 years ago?

[Tsort]

A certain type of person is nostalgic for the old days when ‘men were men, and women were women’. I am not. However, it must be noted that at the time when women were expected to be docile acquiescent homemakers, men were expected to foot the bill. They paid for dinner, sorted the mortgage and brought home the bacon. Not for me, but a fair division of labour.

Now, we have a generation of women who ‘pay their way’, go Dutch and refuse to let men pay for them as they don’t want to be indebted. Grand.

But, these same women also do the lion’s share of housework, because ‘men don’t see it’ and shoulder the emotional labour because ‘that’s just the way men are’.

So, women are now shouldering some of the traditionally male burdens while the traditional female burdens have remained firmly in place. How is this an improvement for women? And why do so many tolerate it? This is a profound misunderstanding of feminism and it hurts so many of us.

@TinaPoopsy52

A quick Google proves you wrong.

Its not admirable to be that uneducated.

Its all a bit flat earther

@Discovereads

Exaggeration. You know full well that the vast vast vast majority of tribes had fairly stock standard gender roles of male warriors, chiefs, female nurturers, sometime medicine women.

Some of the tribes you have mentioned either had female warriors very sparingly (or without any real evidence) and a few of them are literally groups of dozens of people. One is a tiny tribe of four foot pgymies.
There have been virtually no female warriors in pre history and none proven in history.

you have to go far far out of your way to find a tribe that deviates from standard gender roles in any way and then you have to exaggerate most of the way it deviates - and even then it’s a drop in the ocean to all those with traditional gender roles. It’s just what works, especially then.

"consider what you (and your family) would really (honestly) think of a man who deliberately married a woman who was a “provider” so he could never work again. If your attitude is different to him then you’re not really ok with that."

That question was not to me but it shows you miss the point MsPincher. You may not like the point but anyway..., If a couple have a dynamic where they naturally gravitate to certain roles and he is driven more towards the providing role and her a more nurturing role, then your scenario above wouldn't work no, because it is asking those particular human beings to go against their natures and self-identities., People only do what they want to do and there's not a lot you can do about that, I'm afraid..

But would you say that your female menstrual or menopause hormones hugely influence your behaviour? As in, huge meaning the primary factor behind why you behave the way you do? Would you accept normal levels of “estrogen” as the huge influence as to why you chose to be a mother, and if so, what does that say about women who choose not to be mothers? Not enough estrogen or stronger willed than you?

I've been through most of those and more so yes. Thank you, you're right.
Maybe I do lack the capacity for all of them and that's why I sought this situation out.

Certainly found work took up all my capacity although I did do my post-graduate degree during a full-time job. I just wouldn't want to do that again you see, I'm late thirties now and it's all behind me. I left a lot of skills and qualifications dormant for this life. I burned the candle at both ends at one time but now I live a much simpler life it's true. It's also on purpose.

@Discovereads

“That’s why so many more men are in prison or violent or just risk takers (in a good or bad way) than women.

Testosterone doesn’t make men rape and murder. It’s not as big of an influence as you say.“

It does though. Individual men may have choice, but it’s the reason why they are so much more likely to do those things and always have been. Why bother denying it? It is the cause of that.

@TinaPoopsy52
There have been virtually no female warriors in pre history and none proven in history.

This is fucking bullshit to the max. No female warriors in all of history?!?
Where were you educated? In some patriarchal cult?

People only do what they want to do

That's an interesting observation, because I feel a lot of people don't (in this context), and they do what they think they should do or feel pressured to do, and I think women are most guilty of that. (I'm not one of those, but my mother is a prime example of that, as were my grandmothers). The expectation of sacrifice seems to fall more on women, but I do also think the comments around standards are true too.

@Topgub

Wrong about what? About hormones influencing behaviour? Because nothing remotely scientific would ever say otherwise.

No it’s really not. I’m just shocked that someone that believes 1822 pseudoscience and historical errors actually exists in 2022.

Also, to make it relevant he would have to be marrying a woman who specifically wanted a stay at home man as well, in which case no, there wouldn't be an issue would there since both are willing participants in those roles.

For some reason though, (patriarchal societal conditioning/sex influences natural roles) that doesn't happen and it's the woman with the mammary glands and womb who does the childcare and non-financial stuff usually.

@Discovereads

Its the reality. Women weren’t manning the lines of historical armies and it’s deluded to say otherwise. You may get the occasional figure head like Boudicca or Joan of Arc but that’s about it

Ah, you’ve back pedalled from “hugely influencing behaviour” to the innocuous “influencing behaviour” which is vague but not wrong. See we’ve convinced you to drop the “hugely” fallacy.

It’s total crap that hormones “lead to gendered behavior”. Women behave in all sorts of different ways despite having the same hormones. Same with men. Hormones may have “some influence” on behavior but we are complex sophisticated animals not slaves to our hormones.

women and men behave hugely differently and have different roles in different cultures and societies. Yet hormone levels are the same.

the idea that women should be chained to the sink because of biology is crap.

I still want to know who @MsPincher thinks is losing out in my family.

Me because he's prohibiting me from working to have a live-in cleaner
or him because I'm relying on his money.

Yeah because that’s exactly what we said isn’t it 🙄

And no, it isn’t crap, no matter how uncomfortable that is for feminism. Men have higher testosterone, are more aggressive by nature and more target-driven.
Women tend to be less aggressive and more emotionally intelligent.

No it’s really not. You do not know your history or archaeology at all. You’re stuck in 1822.

I just finished a book on the Vikings alone and the author went through over a dozen cases of warrior burials..some even were high status military commander burials that have been DNA analysed and found to be women not men.

Yes female warriors among the Vikings were not 50/50, they were a minority but as he says they were there and some even led and commanded military campaigns.

And as with the other historic cultures I mentioned, these were not royal women or figurehead/mascots. These were rank and file soldiers and warriors.

@Discovereads

So let me get this straight. We know that all other mammal species with the sex with higher testosterone (ie males) will be more aggressive on average across the board, we know that this has also been true for the entirety of history of humans males.
And yet you are saying testosterone doesn’t make men more likely to be violent or takes risks? And it’s all just a patriarchal construct. Just like all those other damn patriarchal constructs in every other mammal species ever!

Higher Testosterone in males affecting their more prevalent aggressive and risky behaviour is a fact.
Your living in a feminist fantasy land to think otherwise.

Anyone who believes hormones like testosterone don’t hugely influence behaviour is the one who believes in pseudoscience

@TinaPoopsy52

Wrong about your sexist beliefs about evolution

Honestly, even a cursory Google would enlighten you.

Been following the hormone chat with interest. I am a total slave to my hormones, I suffer quite bad PMT and it can make me miserable, I was ready to side with hormones influencing behaviours as it makes me eat chocolate and chin off a run. But then I considered it doesn't inherently change who I am or what I do, I have female hormones (lots of them ) and yet I am not the so called traditional maternal figure with instincts to nurture as has been stated, I'm a nurturer sure, but I'm also competitive, a provider, and my DH actually has better parental instincts that me most of the time. So yeah I'm not sure I believe our hormones are what cause gendered behaviours.

We could have got by on one income in the 1970s/80s if we’d been prepared to stay in the decrepit private rental, in a run down area with poor schools. We made the decision that we wanted better for our children, that meant two incomes.

@MsPincher

And this is it. The fear that acknowledging that biology and hormones lead to gendered behaviour would lead to women being “chained to the sink”.

Hormones absolutely influence gendered behaviour- you admit it yourself in this post but try to down play it as “some influence” - well your right, they have some influence. A lot of influence.

Most cultures have had fairly standard gender roles in society taken at a distance, but given these usually are a response to the technology available (being practical in their own time) there is no reason to think that in todays technologically advanced world that acknowledging natural gender differences means putting women or men in a rigid box. We live in a world of plenty were there can be more choice.

both of you because you clearly live in a starkly unequal relationship. And your children who are seeing toxic sexist behavior. Anyone who has a spouse who “prohibits them from working” so they can run around after them but thinks it’s ok needs help.

Okay well firstly I never said he prohibited me, you did. He told me I don't need to and not to bother, but I do anyway.

Secondly, what toxic sexist behaviour exactly?

Thirdly, what is the difference between us exploiting from one another and from us benefiting from one another's roles?

And if we're both equally exploiting one another what's unequal about our set up?

our biology is no different from 50 years ago, yet our behavior and expectations are massively different. That indicates that any influence biology has is very small indeed.