To think a lot of women are worse off than 50 years ago?

[Tsort]

A certain type of person is nostalgic for the old days when ‘men were men, and women were women’. I am not. However, it must be noted that at the time when women were expected to be docile acquiescent homemakers, men were expected to foot the bill. They paid for dinner, sorted the mortgage and brought home the bacon. Not for me, but a fair division of labour.

Now, we have a generation of women who ‘pay their way’, go Dutch and refuse to let men pay for them as they don’t want to be indebted. Grand.

But, these same women also do the lion’s share of housework, because ‘men don’t see it’ and shoulder the emotional labour because ‘that’s just the way men are’.

So, women are now shouldering some of the traditionally male burdens while the traditional female burdens have remained firmly in place. How is this an improvement for women? And why do so many tolerate it? This is a profound misunderstanding of feminism and it hurts so many of us.

I think rampant capitalism is the root of the problem - affluenza. The need for more, more, more that means both parents generally need to work to ‘keep up’.
But I do agree with you OP.

One thing that always strikes me on here is that it's almost considered a foregone conclusion that most women are ambitious and actually want to forge a career and independence etc.

However, if we consider the not insignificant number of women who seem happy to 'take the risk' in return for a life of relative leisure, I think it's difficult to deny that we have far more opportunities/likelihood of accomplishing this than most men.

I see it that we are in a transition

DH father did nothinh at home

DH cooks the sunday roast & a few other meals, does laundry, cleans, takes kids to activities, does his share of childcare drop offs. He does a bit less than me but he's getting better constantly, also i work slightly fewer hours. Dh friends are all similar. Wives all work and the division of labour is reasonable.

Things don't change instantly, many many men are much better than 50 years ago.

Scarf weather, we are not materialistic at all , I was a sahm and now I work.

We don't lust after new cars!

I just think it's incredible that we have got to a position where it seems strange that a parent looks after their own small children.

I think also you have rose tinted spectacles about a magical era when few women worked to earn money.

Not sure it ever existed. Working class women have always laboured to earn money - in farming, food preparation, domestic service, as nannies, cleaning, sewing & laundry, brewing, in family businesses, in factories & mills, nursing and midwifery, teaching. Young children were often simply taken along, left with older women, or minded by (not much!) older children.

I’m not being in the slightest bit aggressive. You disregarded the majority of my comment, I asked if you’d engaged with it (your term, not mine) and if you’d read the rest of the thread.

You’ve answered neither question and claim I’m ‘aggressive’ for asking, so it’s not coming across like you’re particularly interested in an actual conversation. Which is cool for you, but not at all interesting to me.

No. My mum’s friends that got divorced were utterly shafted. Those that didn’t were junior citizens. Life was horribly sexist. Women’s issues were not taken seriously. It is not fun to live in a world where you see a second class citizen because of your sex (or skin colour, or sexual orientation which was also the case in the 70s).

I agree with you that life can more more stressful now. Part of this is men not doing their fare share but part of it is rising housing costs and our increased lifestyle expectations.

The solution I think is a shorter working hours culture, probably a 4 day week, and men doing their bit. But in no way was the 70s better, just bad in a different way.

This is true too.

I was talking from a MC perspective in my post

We haven’t.

Vanishingly few people think it’s odd to be an SAHP of pre-schoolers. People on mumsnet posting to say be careful not to let your career go are saying exactly that, not that a decision to look after kids for a bit is a bad one.

I'm sure it's all been said but no I don't think so. Not WORSE. Still hard but not worse. I left an abusive relationship with two dependants. The worst I had to contain with was squaring up to be roasted on mn for being on benefits. In real life almost but not quite everybody was ok to me. 50 years ago I'd have been a fallen woman. The DC grew up and I got a job and in that context being a single mother was irrelevant. Nobody asked if I had been married/was still married/had had dc without being married! Nobody asked because they weren't ALLOWED to. I think I did volunteer some pieces of information but anyway, I got a job. I now have some small savings, and a pension and if I had nothing at 67 I'd be entitled to an allowance. 50 years ago, I think I would just have had to marry another dick head. So, things can be very hard but they're not worse.

Those of us who have however learned relationships aren't worth the bother stay happily single. Me included.

Most of the UK wasn't middle class 50 years ago. Or now. Your reality doesn't match that of the majority.

I think women are better off in the main than 50 years ago. The problem is now men can get away with abdication of financial responsibility of the family. And women take up financial responsibility which is far harder when you have to take care of small children. The gender pay gap increases massively once women have children.

do school drop offs and pick up sprovide childcare for other family will provide care for our elderly relatives cook three meals a day from scratch plan and shop for all meals all extra-curricular activities make packed lunches for adults and children do all clean up on holidays and cooking all laundry and putting away tidying children's rooms with them which is a huge task actually all house cleaning

It is hilarious that someone thinks this is a full time "role". These are just the normal daily tasks of adult life that people do around their actual job. Mostly not even particularly time-consuming.

I think some posters here are protesting far too much in an attempt to justify their choices. Weird to hear an adult say how busy they are because of cleaning up or washing clothes or making meals. I mean, that's just normal stuff that everyone does regardless!

What a grey oppressive world you seem to want where all couples must be forced into equal amounts of payed work and house work/child rearing regardless of personal inclination.

Nobody has advocated anybody being "forced" to do anything. 🙄 It is, however, very interesting that in countries with more equality and highly subsidised, high wuality childcare almost all women choose to work, and almost all men take advantage of more balanced work policies and parental leave and things tend to be pretty equally shared. And - quelle surprise - these countries tend to have higher productivity, better mental and physical health, and higher childhood happiness scores than our own and higher adult happiness/ wellbeing scores than our own. How does this fit with your biological determinism? Are their populations some kind of genetic non-human mutants?

It is your world that is grey. And it's very sad that you can't see that your "inclinations" are not innate, but mostly a product of your environment and social conditioning.

Also a massive LOL at the smug poster who refers to her partner as a "provider" because he earns £40k per year and apparently to manage this enormous feat of pulling in a fairly standard salary for a bright graduate fresh out of university, requires her to "enable" him and him do nothing in terms of housework etc.

As a lone parent earning three times that and caring for two children with additional needs, and still ensuring I have plenty of time to cook meals from scratch and not be a "detached mother" (wow), I find it highly amusing that this woman has devoted her life to serving the needs of this apparently "Alpha Male man" 🤣🤣 who is apparently so useless her requires a house slave to earn £40k per year. And then boasts about it! Ahahahaaaa 🏆 comedy award of the day for you.

Well, yes. There seem to be a lot of freeloaders who want to pass off basic household tasks as a full time job. Which if they have found someone prepared to fund this laziness, and are prepared to take the risk that involves, it totally up to them. But denigratung other women who strive for more as "detached mothers" and men who share household tasks equally as "beta males" is pathetic and simply shows their own insecurity at their lack of achievement and, well, security. Because it's not within their choice whether their lifestyle is sustainable or not in the long-term. Thankfully women in the UK do not have to live like that these days. If they choose ti, then fine. But to hold it up as some kind of moral and societal superiority is mind-boggling. And I suspect - in many cases - these attitudes come from women who didn't have the intelligence or skills to have a successful career anyway, so they pretend they didn't want to and shit on other women who have.

Fair points, but I doubt the type of woman who lives the high live courtesy of a rich husband really cares. When she pulls up in her range rover most people don't know whether she's a housewife or a CEO. Fact is, she's driving a range rover and most other women aren't.

YANBU. I do everything. And the bits he does, I have to check up on to see they’ve been done, so effectively managing OH too.

OP I may have missed It - can you provide the stats to compare
the violence against women no to fifty years ago (adjusted where possible to reflect different prosecution/reporting contexts)

"And I suspect - in many cases - these attitudes come from women who didn't have the intelligence or skills to have a successful career anyway, so they pretend they didn't want to and shit on other women who have."

Yes that MUST be it. Keep telling yourself that.

When she pulls up in her range rover most people don't know whether she's a housewife or a CEO

Oh, I bet they do. People spot these types from a mile away.

Hard to think of another explanation when you have a woman bragging about her "alpha male" £40k earning husband who she must (in her words) "enable" for him to reach these dizzying heights of achievement. 🤣

And I suspect - in many cases - these attitudes come from women who didn't have the intelligence or skills to have a successful career anyway, so they pretend they didn't want to and shit on other women who have.

Well, maybe in some cases. But there are plenty of women who have all the things you worked hard for, but they got them without... y'know... working hard. I know plenty of women would look down on them but I doubt they care enough to start working 40 hours a week just to appease a few haters.

I suspect - in many cases - these attitudes come from women who didn't have the opportunity to marry a successful man who was happy to fund them, so they pretend they didn't want to and shit on other women who did.