To think a lot of women are worse off than 50 years ago?

[Tsort]

A certain type of person is nostalgic for the old days when ‘men were men, and women were women’. I am not. However, it must be noted that at the time when women were expected to be docile acquiescent homemakers, men were expected to foot the bill. They paid for dinner, sorted the mortgage and brought home the bacon. Not for me, but a fair division of labour.

Now, we have a generation of women who ‘pay their way’, go Dutch and refuse to let men pay for them as they don’t want to be indebted. Grand.

But, these same women also do the lion’s share of housework, because ‘men don’t see it’ and shoulder the emotional labour because ‘that’s just the way men are’.

So, women are now shouldering some of the traditionally male burdens while the traditional female burdens have remained firmly in place. How is this an improvement for women? And why do so many tolerate it? This is a profound misunderstanding of feminism and it hurts so many of us.

[Tsort]

@Dollydea

So given the choice you'd want things to go back to living how the average woman did 50 years ago?

That’s what you’re getting from this thread?

[Tsort]

@Nursejackie1

@Tsort i agree with you and am a bit pissed sorry I was commenting on a pp

No worries. Wine has also been consumed around these parts.

[MangyInseam]

The necessity and expectation for families to have two FT adult workers has made many things a lot less great for families. And that does mean something different for women, who are expected to leave often fairly young kids who haven't started school for paid work. Which is something a great many women would prefer not to do.

It's also the case that even once in school, kids have needs that impinge on a lot of FT jobs. So many families feel they are always catching up, have no time together, etc.

The idea that parents can always split these things 50/50 is pretty naive and depends on both people being in certain kinds of jobs. It does not work if one spouse is a fire fighter, works in the fishery, is a CEO, is in the military, and lots of other kinds of jobs that have high demands.

That being said, expectations for families have changed in other ways. That they have kids in lots of activities, live in magazine worthy homes, get a holiday out of the country every year, new clothes seasonally and lots of choice in your wardrobe, and so on.

[Tsort]

@GetRichOrDieTrying

On thé other hand, if posters on here are to believed then men are bringing more money into the household, so it sort of evens out.

Does it, though? If we both work full time and I come home and do ALL the domestic labour, does the fact that you earn 20% more than me even that out? I don’t think it does.

[AffIt]

Well, here's a big one: I'm childfree by choice and allowed to be (even if there is still a small proportion of society and MN who look at me, and others like me, askance).

Fifty years ago, I'd have to have pretended to be woestruck by my apparent 'unexplained childlessness' or similar and may have struggled to source the relevant contraception to have allowed me to live my lie and enjoy a reasonable sex life, particularly if I lived in a rural community or similar.

So, yes, I do think life is mostly better for women (of all stamps, not just mothers or straight women). It's not perfect, but it's better.

[Tsort]

@MangyInseam

The necessity and expectation for families to have two FT adult workers has made many things a lot less great for families. And that does mean something different for women, who are expected to leave often fairly young kids who haven't started school for paid work. Which is something a great many women would prefer not to do.

It's also the case that even once in school, kids have needs that impinge on a lot of FT jobs. So many families feel they are always catching up, have no time together, etc.

The idea that parents can always split these things 50/50 is pretty naive and depends on both people being in certain kinds of jobs. It does not work if one spouse is a fire fighter, works in the fishery, is a CEO, is in the military, and lots of other kinds of jobs that have high demands.

That being said, expectations for families have changed in other ways. That they have kids in lots of activities, live in magazine worthy homes, get a holiday out of the country every year, new clothes seasonally and lots of choice in your wardrobe, and so on.

So, your answer to the questions asked is ‘yes’?

[AffIt]

'Live my life', not 'live my lie', but an interesting typo.

[Manekinek0]

In an ideal world, I’d have a yacht, a six pack and Jason Momoa on speed dial. What does your comment have to do with the questions in the OP, though?

My point is everyone is worse off. We had 2 full time roles, paid worker and homemaker. Now most families need 2 paid workers to get by and the homemaker role still needs to be done.

[AchatAVendre]

No OP, I don't agree with you. There is far more choice now. Women don't need to get married to some man they aren't particularly attracted to because thats what society expects and they will be in poverty otherwise. They can have a career, get a job and choose to remain single if no good enough man presents.

If their marriage goes tits up, they can get divorced, rather than stay in an unhappy marriage getting beaten up or cheated on.

The notion that all marriages in the "past" took place in a homely rosy glow of perfection is ridiculous.

[Tsort]

@AffIt

Well, here's a big one: I'm childfree by choice and allowed to be (even if there is still a small proportion of society and MN who look at me, and others like me, askance).

Fifty years ago, I'd have to have pretended to be woestruck by my apparent 'unexplained childlessness' or similar and may have struggled to source the relevant contraception to have allowed me to live my lie and enjoy a reasonable sex life, particularly if I lived in a rural community or similar.

So, yes, I do think life is mostly better for women (of all stamps, not just mothers or straight women). It's not perfect, but it's better.

Things have got considerably better for some women. For a lot, it is has not. I’m talking about the latter group. Thus my use of ‘so many’ and ‘a lot’ in the OP, not ‘all’ and ‘every’.

You've stated how life is better for a specific group of women, to whom you belong. How is it ‘mostly better for women of all stamps’, please?

[GetRichOrDieTrying]

@Tsort

Does it, though? If we both work full time and I come home and do ALL the domestic labour, does the fact that you earn 20% more than me even that out? I don’t think it does.

I suppose it depends how much that 20% represents. Let’s be honest here, running the Hoover round and washing his pants isn’t worth £30k per year.

[Tsort]

@Manekinek0

In an ideal world, I’d have a yacht, a six pack and Jason Momoa on speed dial. What does your comment have to do with the questions in the OP, though?

My point is everyone is worse off. We had 2 full time roles, paid worker and homemaker. Now most families need 2 paid workers to get by and the homemaker role still needs to be done.

So, ‘yes’, then? To the questions asked? Grand, thank you.

[Dollydea]

That's *what you're getting from this thread?
*
Yes? I don't understand your point? Of course some women are worse off now, I don't think anyone can dispute that, but people can only speak from their own experiences?
The average woman is far better off now than the average woman 50 years ago.

Things need to change of course, it's far from perfect but for the majority of women things have changed for the better.

[robertpaulson]

@Anyoneleft

I am amazed by friends that have given up their jobs/ financial independence for their families. My job is a lot more demanding and higher paid than my husbands so we share the household tasks/parenting around our work schedule. My DD is only 10 but not a hells chance she will grow up thinking her worth/independence is less than her partners

Oh no! Women choose to look after their own children! Shock! Horror!

[Tsort]

@GetRichOrDieTrying

I suppose it depends how much that 20% represents. Let’s be honest here, running the Hoover round and washing his pants isn’t worth £30k per year.

The majority of the population isn’t earning anything near £150K a year.

[Tsort]

@Dollydea

That's *what you're getting from this thread?
*
Yes? I don't understand your point? Of course some women are worse off now, I don't think anyone can dispute that, but people can only speak from their own experiences?
The average woman is far better off now than the average woman 50 years ago.

Things need to change of course, it's far from perfect but for the majority of women things have changed for the better.

If you’ve read the thread and still don’t understand my point, then I’m afraid I can’t help you. Enjoy the rest of your evening.

[Manekinek0]

@Tsort

So, ‘yes’, then? To the questions asked? Grand, thank you.

No, not just women. You don't have to be so belligerent.

[Namenic]

@Tsort - I suppose it depends on what women want. Some people who want to be sahms might have it worse now? - because of high housing costs (no offence to sahms - if I had enough money, I would be sahp while kids were young - but still, no way would I want to go back to 50years ago).

I would guess that on average, men now do more housework than they did in the past. Overt sexism is less now. Less stigma for divorce. In what ways was it better 50 years ago?

[Aretheyhavingalaugh]

I know this will be an unpopular view but I think things were better when men had the role of the bread winner and women had the role of the home maker. I have 2 children, I work 4 days a week, I do 90% of the home work. I have to worry about bills, work, the kids etc. I would much rather be the home maker. The division of labour is much fairer. The only downside is if you wanted to leave your marriage, it would be incredibly difficult as you'd not acquired any cash. However, 50% of marriages ends in divorce these days so the old system wouldn't work but I think that 50% of marriages end in divorce because there is no defined role for women anymore and they work, do thr majority of the house work and look after the children. I would be much happier being a SAHM

[GetRichOrDieTrying]

@Tsort

That’s what you’re getting from this thread?

What I’m getting from the thread is that you seem to be quite unhappy with where you currently are in life and hope that hearing about lots of others in the same boat may make you happier.

I can’t help on that front really, my parents and grandparents generation had pretty tough lives, with hard work, little money, and lots of early deaths.

By contrast I’ve had the opportunity to live in several countries and now have several beautiful houses and the services of nannys, gardeners, handymen and so on to make life easier.

There’s no way on Earth I could have found my job in Finance fifty years ago, or aspire to the sort of life that I and many of my friends now live.

[Tsort]

@Manekinek0

No, not just women. You don't have to be so belligerent.

I asked questions about women. I’m interested in responses to those questions.

The plight of the poor menz doesn’t interest me in the slightest. If you’d like to talk about that, you’re very welcome to start your own thread. I won’t come near it and you’ll be free of my ‘belligerence’.

[ImustLearn2Cook]

My Grandpa fought in WW2. My Nanna worked as a tram driver or something like that during WW2.

Women have been in the workforce and raising children, housework etc. for much longer than the last 50years. Also, housework was much, much harder without the modern conveniences of dishwasher, robot vacuum, washing machine, dryer etc.

I think women have always been expected to do more and make life easier for men.

I don’t think we are worse off. But, I don’t think we’ve yet achieved being regarded/treated as having equal value and equal importance and equal opportunity as men.

We have made some progress. We are just not there yet.

I went to a jeans shop the other day because I need a new pair.

I compared the same brand of jeans in both the women’s and men’s section.

I liked the Levi jeans. The women’s jeans were $159. The equivalent style, same brand in the men’s section were $109. They were similar quality but much better pockets in the men’s. $50 dollar difference 😡

I am tired of paying more because I am a woman, when I have typically earned less. I’ve always noticed this disparity from my teen years well over 2 decades ago.

This is just part of a larger picture of contempt for women.

That attitude is what needs to change for things to get better.

[AffIt]

How is it ‘mostly better for women of all stamps’, please

Well, firstly I'd suggest the criminalisation of marital rape, which only happened in my country in my lifetime (I'm 43); gay marriage; the introduction of shared family leave; increased inclusion of women in historically male-dominated STEM subjects and careers; and a focus on the principle of consent in young people's sex education.

As I say, none of this is perfect, but perfect is the enemy of good. Small steps, encouraged and driven by women and backed by good men.

Is the alternative 'ah, fuck it, none of this is enough, back in the kitchen, girls'?

[Tsort]

@GetRichOrDieTrying

What I’m getting from the thread is that you seem to be quite unhappy with where you currently are in life and hope that hearing about lots of others in the same boat may make you happier.

I can’t help on that front really, my parents and grandparents generation had pretty tough lives, with hard work, little money, and lots of early deaths.

By contrast I’ve had the opportunity to live in several countries and now have several beautiful houses and the services of nannys, gardeners, handymen and so on to make life easier.

There’s no way on Earth I could have found my job in Finance fifty years ago, or aspire to the sort of life that I and many of my friends now live.

I’m reasonably happy and quite comfortable. Unlike you, however, I don’t believe that my experiences or those of my specific demographic are representative of those of the female population, as a whole. The fact that you seek to centre yourself in this way and cannot see that, statistically, your (alleged) experiences aren’t the norm…well, that’s your issue. Not mine. Night night.

[Tsort]

@Namenic

@Tsort - I suppose it depends on what women want. Some people who want to be sahms might have it worse now? - because of high housing costs (no offence to sahms - if I had enough money, I would be sahp while kids were young - but still, no way would I want to go back to 50years ago).

I would guess that on average, men now do more housework than they did in the past. Overt sexism is less now. Less stigma for divorce. In what ways was it better 50 years ago?

Read the thread.