To think a lot of women are worse off than 50 years ago?

[Tsort]

A certain type of person is nostalgic for the old days when ‘men were men, and women were women’. I am not. However, it must be noted that at the time when women were expected to be docile acquiescent homemakers, men were expected to foot the bill. They paid for dinner, sorted the mortgage and brought home the bacon. Not for me, but a fair division of labour.

Now, we have a generation of women who ‘pay their way’, go Dutch and refuse to let men pay for them as they don’t want to be indebted. Grand.

But, these same women also do the lion’s share of housework, because ‘men don’t see it’ and shoulder the emotional labour because ‘that’s just the way men are’.

So, women are now shouldering some of the traditionally male burdens while the traditional female burdens have remained firmly in place. How is this an improvement for women? And why do so many tolerate it? This is a profound misunderstanding of feminism and it hurts so many of us.

Completely agree with you although wouldn’t like to go back to the way things were.

We need men to up their game. Men who pull their weight is the exception rather than the rule.

I am much happier living without a man because I resented living with another capable adult who didn’t do anything around the house and very little childcare.

Also, men need to understand that even if the mother of their children is a sahm, they also need to do housework and childcare when they aren’t at work.

@keepmywifesnameoutchagoddammouth are you going to justify as to how you know I'm tired, stressed and detached from my children?

I know its terrible poor things
wheres my tiny violin

More like

Sexist posters say something sexist and made up

Topgub challenges

Sexist poster ignores or backtracks

I have done loads already.

Briefly. My husband has three roles; provider, husband, father.

I have the hosuewife role and he has no housework no cooking no school pick ups.

It means we can both do our jobs well without stress.

Our children and our marriage benefit greatly.

I agree Mamabear.

I agree OP. I think women have been their own worst enemies.

I expect my husband to look after me and our children. He likes doing it too. Neither of us wanted me to work outside the home when they were under school age. Now they are older, I work PT which is a good balance. He helps with housework now that I'm PT.

When women entered the workplace, im fairly sure companies didn't pay out extra...men's wages reduced and now we are in a situation where often the woman has to work too.

@keepmywifesnameoutchagoddammouth

Nah.

Those are just choices you've made to conform to sexist gender stereotypes.

That doesn't in anyway explain how the sexes have inherently different characteristics

I think the difference between now and the 70s, is that women have more options. If a man doesn’t pull his weight (eg doesn’t do housework) or is lazy at work (and doesn’t bring home much cash for sahms) or gambles away money or has an affair, it is easier to leave (because there are more jobs available, more education options, lower gender pay gap than 1970s - though still present). This also applies for couples where the man becomes ill during their working life.

I think sahp, wohp can work - if couples take precautions (eg independent Savings, education/training) that enable the sahp to leave and find a good job/lifestyle if things go wrong.

And if men have 3 roles and women only have 1 how is that equal or fair?

When women entered the workplace, im fairly sure companies didn't pay out extra...men's wages reduced and now we are in a situation where often the woman has to work too.

Oh wow, that's a whole new level of blaming women, quite spectacular! This sounds like something an incel would say!

They specifically put down in a nasty way
I.e
Your poooor DH , not having his pants ironed or you waiting at the door with his dinner type thing.
Or on finding out my DH did hands on, sole CC on his days ( Me at work) they sneered at his ability.
Not all by the way.
Some thought it great

Individual families may have different set ups and that’s fine

Overall though I don’t agree it was better 50 years ago for women - which is slightly different to pp talking about their specific situation

@Topgub

The research actually does show men were the hunters and women nurturers. Maybe some modern re-writing if that to fit some kind of equal fantasy days different but it’s not what’s actually been found. Look at all the tribal societies that were found when contact originally happened in colonial ages - they all followed that pattern without exception.

You want it to be true that it was different but it just wasn’t. How and why could it be? Men are stronger and faster and naturally better hunters - women give birth and this was way more dangerous then so we’re the nurturers.
Doesnt mean that it’s that way today (and not many men want to literally hunt for a living anyway) but it’s foolish fantasy to think caveman times were all equal roles.

The thing about men being hunters in instinct is that they have that urge to go out and take significant risks which often translates to business/creative sucess (or massive failure) at a greater rate than women.

I guess it’s testosterone, it’s silly to think having so much more of that hormone doesn’t make a difference to them. Especially when you see it in every other mammal.

Men and women are just different in body and mind and nothing can change that. People that can’t see it live in a fantasy land and do themselves no favours believing it. Just because you want a career doesn’t mean that isn’t true.

Equal does not mean the same. It means equal importance, one enabling the other.

You personally? You're not? Brilliant.

@keepmywifesnameoutchagoddammouth

Your 1 role is of equal importance to his 3?

Nice to see you value his small contributions

🤣

More like -

MN poster - I am a SAHM

Topgub - So your husband does NO childcare... why not, why not , why not, why does he do not childcare why not ..., SEXIST!!!

MN poster - er, he does, it's just that I'm home more ..

Topgub - But where is your husband in this , where is he, where is he, why has he opted out of ALL childcare, why, why, why is he doing NO childcare, does he KNOW his kids, why, why, why, why does he do NOTHING, why does he refuse to do ANY childcare AT ALL forever and ever and ever.., SEXIST!!!!

@keepmywifesnameoutchagoddammouth no I'm not, but you know me better than me? So what, I'm lying?

@TinaPoopsy52

Its not rewriting

Its the actual evidence.

Yes, we have different levels of hormones. Different bodies.

But not to the extent we have no control.

And not to the extent that we should limit either sex.

@Sisisisi

I think they probably really thought that. I don’t think they were bitter. A lot of older women think like that and it’s not bitterness or sarcasm.

Im not saying they’re right, or wrong to like their way, but they’re wrong to be so condescending. But I don’t think it comes from a place of bitterness, I really think many just think they’re better than working women and that there time was better. A lot of people think they know best about all kinds of things I guess.

@runwalk

You seem rather annoyed by a difference of opinion.

As a person of color and lesbian, you wouldn’t pay me enough to go live in the 70’s. The issue you describe in your OP is simply the fact that women are used to tolerating the intolerable, and personally I think there is a shift in that mentality nowadays that didn’t exist in the 70’s.

You keep bringing up domestic abuse, but domestic abuse has always been part of women’s History and the figures and stats now available about domestic abuse are because people have grown more conscious of how problematic and unacceptable it is and are now documenting it and rebelling against it. Keeping women at home and making men the breadwinner was a MASSIVE way to keep the cycle going, as was expecting kids from them. A woman who is financially dependent on a man cannot leave, a woman who doesn’t have any work experience would probably have very little chance to find a job with a salary that wouldn’t drastically lower her and her kid’s life likely won’t leave, a woman who has kids will probably put up with a lot more (including violence) to keep their quality of life.

It’s only in more recent years that women are truly emancipating themselves, realizing that they do want to work, they don’t necessarily want to have kids and that if they do they are prepared to raise them on their own or won’t put up with a husband who doesn’t do his share. There is way less tolerance for laziness and sexists behavior now, you just have to look at Mumsnet. The notion of “LTB” in the 70’s might have been a thing but was still more of a rare event. Nowadays a much bigger chunk of women will LTB If he acts like one.

The old school mindset of men going out to earn money only meant that women’s skills and work ethics were undervalued, to this day they still are, and as high-earning woman who only date women and who much prefer the challenge of working over tending to household duties, how would that benefit me to go back to the good old days? The onus should be on women lowering their tolerance for bullshit, not having kids unless they are willing and able to look after them alone (just like with any big plan one should plan for the worst rather than expect the best and make such decisions based on the worst case scenario not the ideal one) and women stopping believing that if a man treated other women and his kids poorly before her and theirs, that he will behave differently with her.

I am not blaming women for the failures of men to play their part as a co-parent or for being victims to abuse, they hold 100% of the responsibility for being shit co-parents and/or partner; but change comes in not tolerating the intolerable.

There is a reason why women rebelled against living like in the 50’s or the 70’s and it’s because women still had to do most of it anyway and the having to depend on a man for the rest of it put them in an incredibly vulnerable position.

PS: my grandma (20 at the time) as well as my great grandma’s (50’s at the time) all worked in the 70’s all in abusive relationship (minus my grandma) so not sure how their life was any less stressful than mine by having a husband who had an excuse and societal acceptance not to do his share of the childcare and housework all while still having to work and making Pennies…

@Topgub

There is no “actual” evidence of female hunters in pre history your talking nonsense. And all the tribes that were first contacted in colonial times that lives in a pre historical type way had strong gender roles.

I mean what do you expect? It’s so dependent on physicality when you live that way.

School pick up
three meals a day
all laundry
keeping house lean
family childcare
future family elderly care
admin phone calls
bit of work for activities and leisure
conversation
love
lots of home educating
breastfeeding to full-term (5/4 years)
childbirth
listening to him go on about work with bit of interest to be fair
food shopping
meal planning
batching lunches to take to work
packed lunches for school
going down the shop
picking up prescriptions

It's not thing, it's one role encompassing many things.

We could sit down and quantify which was more or more difficult or taxing, but we don't, because we are equal and work within a unit called a family. We don't need you to find it equal, we need us to.