To think a lot of women are worse off than 50 years ago?

[Tsort]

A certain type of person is nostalgic for the old days when ‘men were men, and women were women’. I am not. However, it must be noted that at the time when women were expected to be docile acquiescent homemakers, men were expected to foot the bill. They paid for dinner, sorted the mortgage and brought home the bacon. Not for me, but a fair division of labour.

Now, we have a generation of women who ‘pay their way’, go Dutch and refuse to let men pay for them as they don’t want to be indebted. Grand.

But, these same women also do the lion’s share of housework, because ‘men don’t see it’ and shoulder the emotional labour because ‘that’s just the way men are’.

So, women are now shouldering some of the traditionally male burdens while the traditional female burdens have remained firmly in place. How is this an improvement for women? And why do so many tolerate it? This is a profound misunderstanding of feminism and it hurts so many of us.

A quarter of families are headed by single mums like myself. Things aren’t perfect for single mums but they are a million times better than they were 50 years ago. We have great career options open to us, childcare, benefits and so on.

i tend to think that posts like the ops are just women who don’t want responsibility for themselves and don’t want to work. Rather they want to be looked after like they were as a child. There are men like that too. It’s nothing todo with biological differences.

if you are in a relationship where your partner doesn’t pull his weight then the answer is to get him to step up. Not to return to a more misogynistic era where you could expect to spend all day on housework.

also some women and men want everything to their “standard” in the house. My ex was like that whereas I’m naturally messy and not one for cleaning. A couple need to find a compromise on this - I “don’t see mess” because it doesn’t look messy to me. I now have a cleaner so rarely clean at all. Yet I have two young daughters and pets. And I work full time.

in short I would not give up my independence as a person to be able to not work. Not in a million years.

We work our division of household chores out from time not money. We both earn roughly the same but DH is home by 5, I'm home by 7 and work at home over the weekends. Therefore DH does the majority of chores because he has more time to do them.

To reply to the OP: I know I am better off than I would have been in the 50s, because I have a decent, supportive DH that really does do his fair share. But I know this is not the usual and often have family and friends baulk at the idea of DH hoovering and dusting while I "put my feet up" (working on my laptop on the sofa, yes, with my feet up).

It's the attitude that needs to change. So many woman are "grateful" that their DH does a job when it should just be the norm. So many SM posts about having an amazing man because he hoovered. Once. In the multiple years they've been together. Or cooked. Once. For a birthday/valentines day or whatever but never an average midweek dinner.

But I am hopeful that the more our current generation share household tasks, the more normal it will be so in a few generations time it will be equal.

@Tsort

To the pp who said traditionalism benefits women.

When what they really meant was them

Exactly, I can't believe that a man changed drastically overnight. He was always the same, the women chooses to downplay red flags and turn a blind eye. You see it all the time here. A women has more choice today than ever before, just that's its become acceptable to lack accountability.

Going through any illness or medical condition is better now, menopause being specific to women doesn’t mean that it’s evidence things are better specifically for women than in the past. It’s a better time now for a man to have prostate concer or low testosterone because treatment is better. Does that mean men have made great strides toward male empowerment?

Yes that's very true, I suppose I was just comparing being a woman in 1970 vs today and the future, and which I'd prefer, not really making a statement about empowerment. If we're talking men I suppose it would be interesting to ask how we think men's lives have changed, still very much winning I think! Obviously the inequality between men and women in a medical context is stark, how development is made considering men's bodies not women etc etc, I think more work is being done in this area now, it's an improvement for women but as I keep saying....long way to go!

I had my children forty years ago. I was unusual in that I gave up my job for four years when my children were little. I remember complaining that my NCT coffee mornings were badly attended because all the mothers had gone back to work. I went part time when my youngest was two (childminder had the youngest) and full time when he was six.
It was harder to find child care then. Work was not at all flexible. It was hard to juggle everything.
I retired from full time work (teacher) at 63 and then did three days grand children childcare and two days teaching. I am now 70 and I now do three full days childcare, plus baby sitting. We haven't been able to have a holiday for a year because of childcare commitments.
I am so sick of MN telling me that my generation has it so easy. I have always worked full time in a responsible job. My husband still works part time. We have gifted large sums to our children to help with housing. They have holidays and nights out but our generation isn't entitled to these according to MN.
The past is another country and according to MN posters mothers back then didn't work and sat around all day. All of my friends had responsible jobs and are now expected to do endless childcare for free.
So many mothers are leaving it to their late 30's and 40's to have children. They will be touching 80 by the time they have grandchildren. No doubt they will be excused childcare. This generation have it easier in my view.

Childcare is a fact long before you have a child. It's not something sprung on you out of nowhere. Again it's a choice you make.

Nice sidestep on the question. So I take it you don't remember 50 years ago.

I do. And things may not be perfect, but it definitely is a bloody site better for women now that it was when I was born - 65 years ago today, actually. Maybe nice well off families could live as you suggest, but we were dirt poor and working women was common - if they didn't work then the family would struggle to survive. Worrying about how you pay the bills wasn't something 2022 invented you know.

To be honest, you come across as somewhat misandric. Men in general have both benefits and disbenefits from a patriarchal system that they neither invented nor control. The same is true for women. That means that both men and women need to change for things to be different - and to some extent that has happened over the last 50 years. Perhaps not at a fast enough pace for your liking, but that isn't a test of anything. There are lots of things that I'd have liked to happen that haven't. Some things that I would have hoped didn't happen that have. I just have to suck that up and get on with it.

And it may come as a huge shock to you, but feminism is not a fixed ideology, and what you think it is isn't what someone else may think it is for them. It's a broad church and just because people don't agree with you doesn't make them less of a feminist that you.

@keepmywifesnameoutchagoddammouth

surely part of a holiday is about going to see a different part of the world, see different cultures, how life functions in different parts of the world. no??

Even if I didn’t have to work much, quite enjoyed housework - I would still crave holidays cos staying in one country for months on end isn’t great! I get bored

surely part of a holiday is about going to see a different part of the world, see different cultures, how life functions in different parts of the world. no??

Yes this is what I meant, I holiday to travel, not escape my life. I love to travel.

50 years ago was just before I was born and my mum was in her twenties

I don’t think it’s worse now when I compare for women specifically

i tend to think that posts like the ops are just women who don’t want responsibility for themselves and don’t want to work. Rather they want to be looked after like they were as a child.

I think that responses like this indicate a pretty basic lack in reading comprehension. If you think that I am calling for a return to 1972, then I’d invite you to read the post again.

Another thing that mners seem to forget is that in the majority of cases, the higher you earn, the more responsibilities fall on you, the more demanding and tiring the jobs are.

I was in one of those jobs held mainly by men. I lasted 2 years. The stress, long hours, taking work home was too much. I was completely knackered and could hardly do much at home. In the end, I decided to go down 2 grades and I'm much happier. Still working FT but not half as tired and I have much more energy to take in more home tasks.

It's not about just comparing FT jobs but the type of job too. That and commuting.

Yes and he wants to be that's my entire point. We agreed that because we both want those things. I said we can't all be, obviously someone has to. He likes providing for us, maybe he's a disgusting chauvinist but hey ho, whatever he is he's on route to early retirement and we have a wonderful life because of it.

This. about 25% of women are the higher earners in their relationship. I was with my ex.

And even if you are not, does being a second class citizen even benefit a poor woman with a rich husband? Traditionally (and still now) patriarchy is not so bad for women with good husbands and fathers. But if your well-being is dependent on approval by a man, things can easily go wrong.

better to be a fully independent human with equal rights imo.

I did all that when single and still do it now because the children get to do those things. I'm just saying I could happily go without because I love my life so much.

Imagine being forced to be with your children. How awful.

I am not disagreeing with you. The point I am making is that in the 1970s men and women doing the exact same job were paid very different salaries. And it was totally legal to do that.

Today if a man and woman do the same job they have the legal right to be paid the same hourly rate. I understand that some people (men and women) choose not to seek promotion and are therefore paid less. That is absolutely their right. I have done the same - I have chosen to step down from my former job because I am tired. I now earn far less per hor than I did, but I earn the exact same amount as the men in my office who do the same job as me.

Exactly. And as my husband earns more and has all that responsibility guess what he won't ever have to worry about on top of it.

He'll have a nutritious diet his whole life without ever having to even enter a kitchen.

Terrible aren't we.

@keepmywifesnameoutchagoddammouth

You don't see the inherent sexism in saying men have to be the worker bees?

I wasn’t asked a question. There was nothing to sidestep.

The rest of that comment has no relevance to the OP, anything I’ve said or the topic at hand. You are clearly having some sort of parallel conversation. I hope you enjoy it!

Yeah, sorry. Of course that's better. It's definitely better, it's the choice that matters. If I re-entered the workplace I could start on £40K no problem. That would be more than husband earns right now. But neither of us want that.

I think we hit a sweet spot in the 80s/90s. Houses still cheap enough that one wage would be enough if you were willing to live a basic lifestyle. But feminism had come far enough that women’s quality of life had vastly improved. Oh and gender didn’t exist, happy days.

Sure, and you could call it sexism and I'd still be okay with being sexist. The sexes are different and have different inherent skills and stamina.

We are a sexist family. He gets off on being a provider. I benefit from that too.

@bob78

I think your overestimating that people then (it had started to change) but specifically before then actually had any good solution possible. Say they encouraged the women to leave - where would they go? The streets? Things like social programs, not just for women but for everyone, were only then starting to come about more, the idea of endlessly building new housing and such for social programs wasn’t viewed as economically viable.

It really wasn’t socially acceptable for a man to beat his wife black and blue. I don’t think that was ever really acceptable even in the 1700’s or medieval times. It’s just that social programs in general weren’t viable like they are today.
It wasn’t a world of plenty.