To think a lot of women are worse off than 50 years ago?

[Tsort]

A certain type of person is nostalgic for the old days when ‘men were men, and women were women’. I am not. However, it must be noted that at the time when women were expected to be docile acquiescent homemakers, men were expected to foot the bill. They paid for dinner, sorted the mortgage and brought home the bacon. Not for me, but a fair division of labour.

Now, we have a generation of women who ‘pay their way’, go Dutch and refuse to let men pay for them as they don’t want to be indebted. Grand.

But, these same women also do the lion’s share of housework, because ‘men don’t see it’ and shoulder the emotional labour because ‘that’s just the way men are’.

So, women are now shouldering some of the traditionally male burdens while the traditional female burdens have remained firmly in place. How is this an improvement for women? And why do so many tolerate it? This is a profound misunderstanding of feminism and it hurts so many of us.

But I didn't say anyone had to do anything if you calm down and just respond to what I say instead of trigger points in my set up.

Many men perhaps don't want to be the sole financial provider, and I never married any of those men.

Many men want their wife to work, and those men never married me.

The 90s we’re quite good I agree.

80s a bit masculine with the money and city stuff

One thing I do think has changed for the better is the huge crack down in some top professional services on blatant sexual harassment that seemed to be encouraged back then

I’m only talking about it from the outside though, others may know more

@Wouldloveanother I disagree, pitiful maternity leave, little childcare options, limited flexible working. My mum needed her dad's permission to open a credit card, she was never encouraged into uni (her brother was) she had to go part time as that was expected when they're struggled for childcare, her career stagnated until the noughties when we were grown. She'd have liked to do more sooner. That said my dad was very hands on so she did have a more "modern" man in terms of house work and cooking. Obviously quite personal so I'm not claiming it's representative, but she does like to rightly remind me it's easier as a woman to have a career and family now which is undeniably true when comparing my life to hers.

So, what I’m getting from the comments:

• Pointing out that women are now shouldering some of the traditionally male burdens while the traditional female burdens have remained firmly in place means I am romanticising and want to return to a misogynistic past.

• A lot of you think that 50 years ago = the 1950’s.

Yeah I went to San Salvador by rickety plane in the 00s, the Middle East, Asia, all funded by my full-time job, during my twenties, then settled down in my thirties to the life I have now.

I just planned well because I was given that foresight by my traditional parents.

I knew that that money was all mine but in the future I'd not be earning that as I'd be a full-time mum. (I know, you hate that term, but if you're at work you're not at home and that's just a fact of physics) Your kids aren't at your work.

I think your overestimating that people then (it had started to change) but specifically before then actually had any good solution possible. Say they encouraged the women to leave - where would they go? The streets? Things like social programs, not just for women but for everyone, were only then starting to come about more, the idea of endlessly building new housing and such for social programs wasn’t viewed as economically viable.

Exactly. Society enabled it with the lack of escape, we make up society. So I stand firm by it being more socially acceptable even if people didn't like it, the two are not mutually exclusive.

i also did one of those jobs. I did for a long time- now I have a more relaxed version so I can be with my kids more. Why should men do those jobs though? If it’s a reasonable expectation that humans have to look after themselves and their children why is it acceptable for men to work in jobs which pretend it isn’t.

The more men push for part time work and flexible work to look after their kids the better for women. We need a workplace suitable for everyone not just those with a helpmeet.

@Tsort I accept that many women have too much on them and as more women have stepped into the work space (particularly careers and full time) there has not been a corresponding amount of men taking up the household burdens. Men have had it easier in all generations. But, I still believe it is better in 2022 for women, especially if you try to buck the trend and demand more from the men in your life as I have done.

You’re op is literally that woman are worse off now than in the 1970s. That would indicate that you would like to return there, yes.

Those who are or were SAHM back then, it's a lot of luck if you got a decent husband or not.
You were lucky if you got one who didn't drink, gamble, mean with money, poor money manager, cheat, abuse, refuse to work, had mental illness.

If you're white and middle class, your spouse had more options for better paying jobs, live in better neighbourhoods and send your kids to better schools. He got paid more than minorities and prefered for promotions.

It's great you lucked out, but there were far more poor and otherwise affected families around than white middle class ones.

I don’t doubt more men got away with cheating/gambling/abuse back then. But I don’t think it was quite as prevalent as what’s being said on here. The couples I know who have been married for 40+ years, the woman very much wears the trousers and the man is more passive and lets her ‘run things’.

Many men want an equal partner. Did those men marry you?

although I was the higher earner my ex still worked more or less full time and did his share of childcare etc. as a woman it would have been wholly undesirable to be with someone who left all the financial responsibilities to me. I can’t imagine supporting someone financially not to work long term. A lot of men are like that too and many of the ones who aren’t don’t see their partners as equals.

@bob78

Yes but my point was that it was more just technological progress that made it possible, then attitudes followed. It would have been the same in the days before there were many homeless shelters etc. - they only came about when it actually became remotely possible to build them and sustain it economically and technology wise. Same for mental hospitals and so on.

My OP literally says (copy/pasting, here):

A certain type of person is nostalgic for the old days when ‘men were men, and women were women’. I am not.

They paid for dinner, sorted the mortgage and brought home the bacon. Not for me, but a fair division of labour.

So, women are now shouldering some of the traditionally male burdens while the traditional female burdens have remained firmly in place. How is this an improvement for women? And why do so many tolerate it? This is a profound misunderstanding of feminism and it hurts so many of us.

You think that indicates that I’m romanticising and want to return to the 70’s? Or, perhaps (strain yourself, here), as I have explicitly stated that I am not nostalgic for the past, I am saying we should reevaluate what we are currently tolerating.

I'm equal, just not the same.
What I do enables him to make the money he does.
What he does enables me to do what I do.

We all benefit.

If a man wanted me to earn the same as him he'd not have chosen me would he, nor I him. I chose a provider, my husband chose a housewife. Our children are free to do as they please and they know that too. Our children might be gay, that would prohibit our set up immediately, and they know that's fine too. They might be child-free etc. etc. to infinity.

OP I note you have completely ignored my post about women creating extra household work by setting themselves unnecessarily high standards, doing far too much laundry/washing/cleaning, and getting cross when their husbands don't think all that cleaning/laundry is necessary, so don't do it.

@keepmywifesnameoutchagoddammouth

Imagine being proud if being sexist

Retype that sentence and exchange sexist for racist or homophobic

He gets off on being a provider.

🤢

What inherent skills and stamina separate the sexes?

Inherent meaning essential characteristics?

OP in your 'fair division of labour', who decides which household tasks really need doing and to what standard they need doing?

He wants to retire early so me taking all that extra pressure off him means he will be able to. We planned the life we want together you see, I think this is hugely lacking in marriages today.

Weak straw man. It wasn't me who characterised it as sexist, and also if you remove the connotations from "sexist" you might see it's just sex-based roles, which yes, I'm happy with. If others aren't, lovely. Crack on.

My husband couldn't breastfeed our children to full-term.
My husband can't cook three meals a day from scratch.
My husband can't be at the school gates at 3pm every day.

And he doesn't need to.

I can't do all the above and work. And I don't need to.

I have also had a traditional marriage set-up which wasn't something I was told I should be aiming for when I was studying in my 20s. But now, with three teens, I can look back in my life and say thank god I had a husband who was able to financially provide for us and saw this as his role and identity. I respect him so much more for that. I realise now, what I didn't need was another "me" and that's probably why I married him (though it wasn't conscious at the time). I sought a man to complement me, not to be the same as me in terms of our roles and priorities. I know some people will froth at that but I can see now that I've had so much pressure removed (as has he) and we've all benefitted overall - emotionally, sexually, financially, practically, health-wise, time-wise, kids educations, opportunities, everything. If people want to say a man and woman having different roles is "sexist", then absolutely fine, but the fact this, when it works, it works. I 100% realise it's not for everyone, but then the 50/50 set up would not be for me. I'm so glad I never had to live like that, it sounds so perfunctory, stressful and limiting. Women are all different, even in 2022.

I get it, your husband's a beta male.

‘Completely ignored’. Right. There are almost 300 posts on this thread. I don’t think there’s any expectation that I’ll respond to all of them. If you directly tag me, I’ll respond, but I’m not going hunting for whatever comment you’re referring to.

@keepmywifesnameoutchagoddammouth completely off topic but I'm very impressed he is able to retire early and support both of you to do that on less than £40k.

We live in a cheap part of the country and he can't retire now, but wants to and aiming for it. And I keep the food budget down because cooking from scratch is very cheap but very-time consuming, but of course I have that time. It's a win win because it's far healthier.

I bring in pin money so that helps. We also have time to negotiate deals and save money because I don't work full-time. Essentially one parent not working full-time can save money in those ways if you see what I mean.