To think a lot of women are worse off than 50 years ago?

[Tsort]

A certain type of person is nostalgic for the old days when ‘men were men, and women were women’. I am not. However, it must be noted that at the time when women were expected to be docile acquiescent homemakers, men were expected to foot the bill. They paid for dinner, sorted the mortgage and brought home the bacon. Not for me, but a fair division of labour.

Now, we have a generation of women who ‘pay their way’, go Dutch and refuse to let men pay for them as they don’t want to be indebted. Grand.

But, these same women also do the lion’s share of housework, because ‘men don’t see it’ and shoulder the emotional labour because ‘that’s just the way men are’.

So, women are now shouldering some of the traditionally male burdens while the traditional female burdens have remained firmly in place. How is this an improvement for women? And why do so many tolerate it? This is a profound misunderstanding of feminism and it hurts so many of us.

Yeah course it is. I'm really happy for you too that you have work you truly enjoy. But we both know that's rare. I'd love to know what you do but I know that's not readily shared on here.

I do work, just only as much as I want to which isn't much. But I don't need to outsource housework as I quite enjoy it, I listen to podcasts as I do it and as for holidays we have them but I literally don't need them, my life is a holiday. This was my dream; a life I don't need a holiday from.

I just think everyone should live their dream, but so many just feel that's not possible.

What do the other women you mention do?

Just lastly, we assume they do it because they love the work but from what I've read on here it could also be because they are terrified of one day being unemployable or losing financial independence.

I don’t think a year long maternity leave actually does women any favours.

A quick google tells me that women couldn’t have a bank account in their own name in the UK until 1975.

I get that generally women still do most/all of the housework and they’re expected to work too and yes that sucks. But the solution isn’t looking to the past and saying we’re worse off now. It’s to stop cleaning up after men and demanding a fair division of labor in relationships. Believe me, I’m aware those things aren’t easy, but now as a single woman I’m not clearing up after a man again. I’d literally rather die alone.

We do need a cultural shift in attitude, but I think that has to start with us refusing to be the maid anymore and also making it clear that it’s fucking pathetic that so many adult men expect to be babied, and that a partner who does not respect your time does not respect you as a person.

I mentioned violence against women as one of many ways women continue to be oppressed, yes.

I think it is more socially unacceptable these days though, we talk about it more, women are not expected to suffer in silence. There is more support out there to get help and get out of it. I suspect it would be hard to statistically compare because I'm guessing it wasn't reported as much back then. So whilst it may or may not be lower, I'd like to think women aren't quite as trapped as they once were if they are in the situation. But again...a lot more development in this space needed!

Being with your child full-time for that first year is wonderful though, for both of you. Of course it's a favour. Children are there to be enjoyed and loved. Spending those years with my children as babies was invaluable to me, and to them.

"Men and women are biologically different and have different strengths by trying to make both sexes equal we make both unhappy."

100% this.,

Traditionalism suiting a very small minority of women who still actually have that stepford submissive option isn't a valid reason to insist its better for everyone

Its not.

It has a lot to do with the price of property today. Fifty years ago, a household could get by one salary, which in most cases came from the husband. Now it realistically takes two incomes, so many more women have careers. From all I read, men are doing more domestic work than they used to. But equally, more households now have help - cleaners, nannies, nursery, whereas in the past, all that was down to the woman.
I read a lot of posts where women are urged to 'get their partner to step up,' so from that I guess that daily life has become more stressful for both partners.

Pay scales exist, jobs are advertised to either sex for the same pay.
When are they just blatantly paid less when that's literally illegal?

Yup.

Today women can educate themselves to whatever standard they choose and with any decent employer can absolutely go on to whatever level they're capable of (or have aspirations for). I earn more than most men and women, because I choose to and I can. So I'm financially beholden to no one.

In term of taking on more at home / with DC... well this just comes down to partner choices. A woman is 100% free to choose her partner - there is no societal pressure or family / villages elders arranging marriages any more!

If a woman chooses a feckless one that doesn't share the same values / work ethic and doesn't address issues as and when they arise... well you get what you get and one must look in the mirror to start the process of understanding how they got the rather crap / unequal life they're living.

I think we can do both. And, unless you’re in an arranged marriage, you picked your man. Women make choices.

@keepmywifesnameoutchagoddammouth I completely agree with your other post about having the discussion before marriage. At the end of the day the only way it'll work (whatever the set up) is if everyone is upfront at the start, I suppose the tricky thing is not everyone knows how they will find babies, I got more career orientated after kids. And I appreciate it's harder (financially) these days to opt for one working parent if that's what you want.

I work in the civil service, senior level, as do the women I'm discussing, one of them I absolutely know doesn't needed to work but loves her job, I couldn't vouch so confidently for the other, but we work in a very interesting field that we are very passionate about (sorry I'm not trying to be obtuse, I'd love to be able to talk about it!) we'd earn a lot more privately but motivated by the work we do. The good thing about the CS is that we are able to work very flexibly which really helps balance everything else.

@Tsort

Then women make the choice to work and do all the domestic work

Women enforce this.

Its women who judge women for how they look. How their house looks. Not spending enough time with their children.

A quick google tells me that women couldn’t have a bank account in their own name in the UK until 1975.

I keep reading this on here. I went to university in 1972 and had a bank account in my own name to pay in my grant cheque.

I was not describing my marriage. I was referring to studies/stats and responding to another poster. I have no idea if the women in those situations discussed things before marriage. Presumably some did and some did not.

Yes, that was my point. One huge different for women today is the legislation about equal pay. I am not saying it is a problem that has gone away - women in full time work are still earning nearly 9% less than men according to the ONS, but it is much improved on the position of women in the 1970s. Women back then fought long and hard for these rights.

The 1970s were a terrible time for women, especially those who worked in manufacturing. They had very limited employment rights.

I know what you're getting at, yes I can understand that. It's just you're the exception, but so are we.

I'm going to tell my children that the more traditional set up is a valid option, that's all, and not to try to be all things all the time because if you don't have a career that's fine. See the thing is people suggest it's not, but it is.

I will not be encouraging my children to be a housewives or breadwinners, but whether we like it or not it's being modelled to them, and this could be part of why our wider family have this set up. The matriarch had eight children and was a housewife herself. The family is so very close which is lovely and I'm gearing up eventually to probably have to do a lot of care work for them and my own, which again, I will enjoy.

Family is important. I am irreplaceable to my family, but everyone's replaceable at work. Work doesn't value you like family does. but yes, the work you do is obviously of great importance and you should be very proud. And if my children do these things I will be very proud of them also. I'll even do all the childcare for them if I can as well. But something has to give, we can't all be worker bees.

I 100% agree with this. An area where women indisputably have it better than they used to (and one that will hopefully get even better).

@keepmywifesnameoutchagoddammouth

Presumably you expect your oH to be a worker bee?

I don't think it has ever been socially acceptable to beat women.
Can remember from my 70's childhood a neighbour that was treated with disdain for beating his wife, the difference now versus then is that these days the woman would be encouraged to leave and hopefully there would be support in place to facilitate it, back then it was viewed as the woman's bad luck, that she would have to find a way to tolerate, because there were no laws or refuges to protect her.
And to the poster that said it was common amongst the working classes, I grew up very much working class , my dad was very much against hitting women and many of the WC men that I later when on to date and have relationships with also had the same stance. Don't know where you get the idea that WC people are doing this. I I would hazard a guess that a WC person would more likely to be vilified by their wider community for behaving in that way, than the nice middle class family, that no one would suspect because he's got a good job.

I am far, far more stressed out with 2 kids than my Mother ever was with 5. She quit work age 25 and was not juggling full time work with home life. Schools were far less demanding of parents. People could afford decent homes with decent gardens on a single wage because that was the only market. She had a husband who came home and handed her his wage though, which I appreciate was an ideal scenario. I'm not wistful, but it's a fact that my life is tougher than hers was.

@bob78

Going through any illness or medical condition is better now, menopause being specific to women doesn’t mean that it’s evidence things are better specifically for women than in the past.
It’s a better time now for a man to have prostate concer or low testosterone because treatment is better. Does that mean men have made great strides toward male empowerment?

Of course. I will easily contribute to that too but it's my choice. Time off for maternity is a choice and it's preferable for all involved. ONly women can give birth, breastfeed, regulate heartbeat by close contact etc. etc. Women aren't just being paid less much of the time, they are taking more time off, school pick up etc.

And what's the alternative? Let a stranger do those things? Why is that better, outwith career, why is that preferable?

I don't care I earn less, I'm not the earner, I'm the mother, cook, collector, cleaner, listener, and resident lounger :) I don't have time to fit a career in, it would make me very tired and I don't like being very tired.

back then it was viewed as the woman's bad luck, that she would have to find a way to tolerate, because there were no laws or refuges to protect her.

I would argue that's a demonstration of it being more socially acceptable than it is today. Not legislating to protect people in their homes is indirectly condoning the violence, even if people "tutted".

Is this in response to the OP or to other posters? As that’s not what I’m saying at all.