To hope that we welcome men fleeing Russia

[MindYourBeeswax]

Many are fleeing Putin's Press Gangs.
The EU Council President has recommended that the EU offer them asylum.

It must be bloody terrifying and, although we're not in the EU longer, I hope that this government follow his example and offer sanctuary as we have done for fleeing Ukrainians.

I know that they will be young men and not need to live with families in the same way that Ukrainian women and children did so although that would be ideal, it's not essential and hostels/hotels could be used.

Will you offer a home if asked? I can't but I would like to help in some way.
AIBU to hope that we will help these fleeing Russians?

Quite agree

Well European countries spent the better part of the 16th-20th centuries looting other countries for their resources and controlling their peoples. All for “our” own economic and political gain.
We do shoulder some responsibility for this across the world.
We’re still up to it now (manufacturing and mining etc).
We should be helping others up.

To those saying Russians support the war - you know the vast majority don’t have access to the same information we do, as to what is actually happening? They believe what is being reported to them. Shit, it’s not like there aren’t propaganda channels in the west, where people do have significantly more freedom when it comes to accessing alternatives, that have their viewers unquestioningly believing them.

That said, a lot of these men fleeing were the ones opposed to the war. They were the ones protesting. A lot of them didn’t flee then because they did want to stay and try and force change within their own country (as if it’s that fucking easy). They’re fleeing now because they don’t want to be forced into fighting a war they don’t believe in, they don’t want to be sent to kill and/or die.

Russians are protesting. It’s not simply a case of them fleeing:
www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ukraine-war-vladimir-putin-conscription-b2174566.html?amp

Anti war protests have been ongoing since war was declared:

“The protests have been met with widespread repression by the Russian authorities. According to OVD-Info, at least 14,906 people were detained from 24 February to 13 March,[93][94] including the largest single-day mass arrests in post-Soviet Russian history on 6 March.[95] Human rights organisations and reporters have raised concerns of police brutality during arrests and OVD-Info reported several cases of protestors being tortured under detention. The government has also moved to crack down on other forms of opposition to the war, including introducing widespread censorship measures. Other individuals who signed anti-war petitions have faced reprisals.[96]”

“On 1 March, reports and photographs appeared in social media, also republished and confirmed by Novaya Gazeta, showing primary school children behind bars, arrested by police in Moscow for laying flowers at the Ukrainian embassy and holding signs saying the repeated "No to war".[122] A special detention center set up in Yekaterinburg ran out of room for prisoners arrested from protests.“

“On 5 March, ahead of protests planned for 6 March, police raided, searched and detained hundreds of Russian journalists, politicians and activists.”

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_anti-war_protests_in_Russia

“In violation of the Russian Constitution and international human rights law,[11] Putin has made peaceful public protest without permission of the authorities illegal.“

so those saying ‘well, they need to stay and force change’, do you not think people haven’t been fucking trying?

For those that are so brainwashed though surely they would welcome taking up arms for their country, no? If they believe the narrative being spun and were happy to accept that then its only as they are now at risk that they're concerned.

www.compas.ox.ac.uk/2022/on-the-anti-war-movement-in-russia-from-street-protests-to-guerrilla-activism/

and here’s some information the recent history of Russian activism, and what is actually happening within Russia in regards to the anti-war movement:

www.compas.ox.ac.uk/2022/on-the-anti-war-movement-in-russia-from-street-protests-to-guerrilla-activism/

Feel free to take a read, or don’t. Just continue to write of an entire ethnicity as ‘orcs’ and subhuman.

You’re assuming that those protesting and fleeing are the same ones believing the government line. Of course there will be overlap, but that does not reflect the entirety of the situation.

As a rule, it is those living in cities are more able to access information as to what is actually going on. A lot of, if not most of, these people are the ones that have been opposed to the war from the beginning.

It’s very easy to sit back from a position of safety, judge these people, and say they should have been doing more. No one here has to seriously consider the repercussions in their own lives.

As I said earlier in the thread hopefully those who were protesting and are now against this find safety, but those who believed the propaganda then should surely feel strongly enough to want to fight now. Unless- many were apathetic as long as it was someone else in the firing line, in which case no thanks.

I just think if propaganda is being used as a justification for inaction then surely those people who believed it wouldn't be so against fighting.

Believing Russians are the enemy of the West, isn't hating or xenophobic.

As i said earlier, if Iranian women can stand up against machine guns, then so can ordinary Russians and there are some exceptionally brave Russians opposing Putin.

Western former soldiers have gone and died, been beaten & captured fighting for Ukraine - if they can do this, then fit young ex soldiers can fight for their own country.

But if you genuinely do believe Russians are not our enemy, then let them in, we have nothing fear do we?

I have no problem in accepting that some of the men attempting to leave Russia in the last few days will be genuine activists against the regime (ones that haven't been arrested, obviously) but can guarantee that ALL of them without exception will be vehemently anti Putin when being interviewed at their destinations. There is no way of sorting out the wheat from the chaff, the people who genuinely oppose the regime, from the ones quite happy about the invasion of Ukraine as long as they don't have to do any actual fighting, from the security services plants. Quite a lot did leave soon after 24/2 and they are understandably viewed and treated differently.

I certainly do not consider Russians "subhuman" (I haven't actually seen that vile and loaded word used on this thread, but could have missed it) or "orcs". All of us are aware there are protesters against the thug regime they have in charge and know how brave those people are. It doesn't mean that we are obliged to take in tens of thousands of Russians who have decided to leave their country to avoid being called up, to the potential detriment of our own security.

Fill the country full of young fit men who also happen to be our enemy. Yeah sounds like a great plan. What could possibly go wrong?

This. Absolutely no way, OP.

Hard as it sounds, Russian men haven’t been bother about Putin until they were affected personally. They need to stay and do something about him.

i’m not saying that the UK should take them in. I don’t actually think the UK is in the best position to.

My point is that it’s very easy to say ‘well, they need to change it then’, especially when you’ve never been in that position, having to ask yourself whether you can even make a difference, whether it’s worth being arrested and tortured, or whether you want to risk having your children taken to detention camps. Even in spite of all that, it’s not like people haven’t been trying. They have.

Calling an entire population ‘the orcs’ is calling them subhuman, by definition. I’m half Russian, does that make me 50% orc? What degree of blood denotes me as a write off? Am I considered to have a redeeming 50%, or is it akin to a rotten apple where you throw the whole thing away?

@whumpthereitis I'm sorry you've been made to feel like that. As I say, neither are words I would ever use to describe any race or nationality (although I'd use far worse to personally describe Putin and his henchmen)

Of course no nationality is intrinsically "bad". The Russian people have been through more than many over the centuries, including within living memory and it is easy to say that Putin should have been stopped before we got to this point but harder to do. However, we are where we are. He is Russia's leader, he is making threats against the safety of the UK (and the entire planet) and there are in reality plenty of people who do support him or who will always be too frightened to take action. What are we in the West meant to do? Invade Russia? Effectively it is the problem of the Russian people to deal with and it won't be easy. We can't do it for them, though.

The western world shouldn't accept these draft dodgers as only now it affects then do they act (run away)and shloud keep its borders closed to Russians, increase sanctions and concentrate on keeping ukraune armed.

Ukraine are repelling the trained army, conscripts won't last long, and hopefully the Russians withdraw from their invasion/mass murders/raping/looting

Draft Dodgers? I think that's ridiculous language. Not everyone is up for killing fellow humans. Not everyone can leave their country when they want. Protest makes no difference if your country goes to war, as we saw with Iraq. I am all for putting our own first and don't want to take anyone in unless it's to our own advantage, but I can own that without demonising people.

If they only wish to leave now, and have thought it OK to stay for the past 200+ days, the only difference now is the fact they will be called up to fight. Is that not dodging the draft?

And my sympathies lie with the Ukrainians, the ones that have been invaded, the ones that have had residential areas repeatedly bombed, the ones buried in mass graves, the ones that have been raped.
Sorry, but Putin has dragged Russia back behind the iron curtain, he was elected in and is supported by his people.

‘Draft dodgers’, as if it’s shameful to want to ‘dodge’ fighting in an aggressive war.

Plenty of them will have been protesting from the beginning, for what good it’s done them or Ukraine.

So you think people should be conscripted to fight a war they don’t support, in order for them to be killed easily?

Ah yes, the free and fair Russian elections, because Russia is of course a country notable for its democratic freedoms.

Many want to leave now because it’s got to the point where it’s leave or be forced to fight. Plenty will have stayed because, like many here are saying they should, they actually wanted to try and force change by being present and protesting in their own country.

My sympathies lie with the Ukrainians too. They also lie with Russians.

Nope nope nope. They made their bed.

But they have supported since the invasion, only now do they flee or act.
Maybe they cross the border to help repel the invaders or rebuild ukraine?

I’m sorry, I’m being clumsy with my words. I’m not hurt, but I am wary. I grew up in Yugoslavia, I’ve seen first hand the consequences of ‘othering’ people based on their ethnicity. That didn’t just happen overnight, it started with language.

I do fully agree with your points. It’s not as simple as just taking people. And yes, ultimately change has to happen from within Russia. Unfortunately, that won’t happen overnight either.

No, a lot of them haven’t. There’s been a LOT of anti war activism happening within Russia, and not just in regards to the protests.

and there are Russians fighting for Ukraine, with support coming for them from within Russia as well. There’s not a lot of information out there about them because there can’t be.

amp.theguardian.com/world/2022/jun/14/russians-fighting-for-ukraine

I'm watching those brave women in Iran. They can be imprisoned and killed for breaking the "morality" laws, eg wearing a headscarf loosely.
They're on the streets, taking off headscarves, cutting their hair.
I wish we could give asylum to every girl and woman there, but we can't.
So many world problems. How do we select?