To think most Brexiteers must now regret their vote?

[hoovermanouvre]

If you voted Brexit, do you feel like you have been able to "Take Back Control?" If so, where? Can anyone state one positive change since Brexit - I would genuinely like to hear at least something. Anything?

YANBU - I voted Brexit but now regret it
YABU - I voted Brexit and can see a benefit

Can someone explain to me in clear words why I as a "middle class socialist" should take such pains not to offend the poor little Tory Brexiters despite their having screwed the country and my childrens' future with it, and despite their routinely describing MY social demographic in the most aggressive and insulting terms possible, particularly when we attempted to engage in reasonable debate about the facts of what was being proposed?

What people seem to forget is that some perceptions of facts ARE more accurate than others, and some ways of making decisions about the future based on those facts ARE more likely to result in better or worse outcomes. Some things, to be fair, come down to values. People who said they didn't care about the effect on the economy, they basically just wanted fewer immigrants around for cultural reasons, at least had a position that was coherent. But those who voted Leave because they believed immigration and the single market were bad for the economy and responsible for their falling living standards were wrong. That's not about my judgment of them: they were wrong on their own terms. Economists knew they were wrong and said so at the time. Now Brexit has been done and the country is going to shit, and we're all supposed to "be kind" and spare their poor little feelings? Where was that kindness when we were being called all kinds of stupid stereotypes for trying to steer the vehicle back from the cliff? When people were saying they wanted Brexit precisely in order to "stick it to" all the Liberal Metropolitan Socialist Middle Class types?

Meanwhile……

Record numbers cross the channel in flimsy dinghies in a desperate attempt to get away from the EU shithole.

Wouldn't it be so much better if there was a safe way for these legal migrants to reach the UK?

They aren’t, though. They would rather live in the UK for many reasons, not that the EU is a shithole. Remember, in a year, lifestyles of average people in Poland will have overtaken those in the U.K, and the poorest in the UK will be 20% worse off than the poorest in Slovenia. There’s a thread about it.

It's funny. When we were in the EU, we were told that we had problems with immigration because we were part of the EU. Now we're outside the EU, we're told that we have problems with immigration because everyone's trying to get out of the EU.

Either way, it seems that people are determined that it's going to be the fault of the EU.

What will they say, I wonder, when Truss is forced to sign trade deals with countries such as India that allow for a significant increase in migration? Will that be the fault of the EU too?

I voted leave... regret this decision now.

It's clearly not the brexiteers who are the thick ones here, the number of sad goady remain trollers repeatedly posting this same boring crap is ridiculous. As are all the echochamber voices..
Get. The Fuck. Over. It.

Perhaps we aren't bothered if you find us boring. And perhaps we aren't ready to just "get over it" because we are unhappy about the shitshow that Brexit has created.

You exercised your democratic right to vote leave. We are now free to exercise our democratic right to talk about what a terrible decision you made and to speculate about whether you've realised yet what you've done. If you find it boring, other threads are available.

@StridTheKiller What was the one most important reason that you voted for Brexit?

@jgw1

MEPs are also elected directly by people

But as I stated before, MEPs do not hold the power. Its the European Commission which runs the EU, not MEPs, and there is no direct link between voters and it.

So if the President of the EU was a hereditary position you would prefer that.

No, because as I also stated before, the UK Monarchy has no political power over us, whereas the EU did have. Its an invalid comparison.

You are obviously pro-EU but would you accept the points I raised originally are perfectly legitimate and reasonable grounds for someone voting for Brexit?

Migrants coming to the UK - however they may arrive - is ultimately nothing to do with being in the EU, or not.

The reason we have high inward migration is because the UK has not has a sustainable birth rate for decades now. No other reason.

If people have children at all, it tends to be only 1 or 2, which is not sufficient to replace the population.

(The UN identifies that the replacement rate for a developed nation is 2.1 children per couple - which means couples having 3 in practice, give you cant have 0.1 of a child).

For as long as we have an inadequate birth rate, we will continue to accept high inward migration - its a necessity, not a choice.

But, of course, its better to have a well managed system of accepting desirable migrants (in terms of their language skills, education, values etc) rather than a chaotic unmanaged system.

Being out of the EU means there is more chance of this happening, if the UK - not the EU - has the final say over its own borders.

@Florenz

Everyone votes for selfish reasons.

I dont, I try to vote based for values - but this means there are very few suitable parties or candidates, given politics is now mostly value-free.

Instead its all about who has the most money and who is jealous and angry about this.

Sorry I got rather stuck on the EU being anti-democratic and the UK having new unelected Heads of State and Government being much more democratic.

I am not pro-EU, prior to the referendum campaign I was firmly for leaving. Given that the Leave campaign singularly failed to provide any rational argument for leaving the EU, but instead was led by some whose views I found so abhorrent I could not vote the same way as them.

Since we have left the EU there have been no discernible benefits and considerable downsides so in that sense I suppose I am becoming more pro-EU, but that is more a reflection of the particular bizarre version of Brexit chosen by the Tory government.

I voted to leave and don't regret it. Nor do the others I know also who voted leave (shock horror, we all have degrees, some postgraduate qualifications and jobs in professional services just to further enrage the 'All Leave voters are thick and uneducated' posters).

However, this topic has been done to death on MN so I doubt you'll find too many Leave voters volunteering to cop the vitriol and hatred that these threads inevitably descend into.

Yes it is indeed a shame that rather than engaging in discussion Leave voters descend to such vitriol, but then I suppose when you are defending a campaign headed by people who have made their living spouting hatred of those they consider "other" it is not that surprising I suppose.

Perfectly proving my point..

The good news is that I can think of at least five threads on this topic in the last few months where all views have been discussed at some length.

Compare your life with that of your grandparents- that is the benefit of the free market.

There would be no internet or smartphones or Mumsnet were it not for the free market.

Admittedly there was far greater equality in the days before free market capitalism took off in 18th century with Industrial Revolution and you were lucky if you lived to 40.

😂

Bankers make decisions about where capital is invested

All the engineers and scientists cannot do anything to advance civilisation without capital markets

Since you are keen on smart phones, shall we discuss the development of the screens in them?

How did free markets help this chap
www.science.org.au/profile/paul-burn

Discover light emitting polymers whilst a post doc researcher at the University of Cambridge? Certainly it wasn't by investing in the technology in its early years to help improve it.

Once again ...

All the brainy scientists and engineers in the world such as Mr Burn cannot advance civilisation one iota without free markets deciding to allocate capital to them

Which will be why Prof Burn had working flat screens of the type that is in many smart phones without any investment from banks...

Oh come on! Show me one - just one - rental property on Rightmove that still has an outside khazi as its only alternative to a chamber pot.

I wouldn’t actually call an outside loo as the marker of poor living standards -even if it was your only one. Poor living standards are mould, damp, vermin, cold, leaking roofs, no furniture, overcrowding, etc.

I didn’t vote for brexit but I can say I’ve seen LOADS more paperwork in my line of work because of it and extra cost. I see no benefit at all.