Curtseying and bowing...

[FlowerArranger]

Time to stop it, surely?

I could kind of understand it while the Queen was alive, as she was of a different era and used to it, probably considering it part and parcel of being the monarch.

But now? Have we not moved on? It just seems inappropriate and demeaning.

Of course you are. And you don't have to do it.

But as far as I can see, none of the people who would choose to bow or curtsy are complaining in the famous Mumsnet way about how baffling it is that anyone might feel differently, or calling on the King to publicly pressure people to do what they would choose.

If you're so into fairness and equality, just respect that not everyone feels the way you do and leave everyone alone to make their own choice. That's what the royals do.

Yes course. I think lots of things are daft or silly or just unnecessary. But other people disagree, and I'm not the world police, so as long as I'm not directly affected and nobody is being harmed, I couldn't care less what others do!

@ReneBumsWombats and @CallMeLinda I feel like you have missed the tenor of my last few posts. Of course people should do as they please and I'm not trying to police anyone. I have no issue with people choosing to bow and scrape as they please but just as they have the right to do that, I also have the right to think that the practice is outmoded and, well, to put it bluntly, reactionary.

Conversely, why are you so aggrieved that I should have these opinions?

Why am I not surprised that you think anyone who doesn't agree with you is merely incapable of understanding you?

Or that, after being told it isn't necessary for you to understand why people feel differently, you immediately rush to the old "I'm allowed to say it", as if that were ever under discussion?

Or that you are now declaring that everyone except you is becoming aggrieved?

I'm not aggrieved. In my first post on this thread I said I wouldn't bow or curtsey if I met a member of the RF. I don't think it's odd others do, though. They can think and act however they feel is appropriate for the situation.

Of course if we didn't air our opinions there would be no discussion on here at all 😁

I do wonder if people who adopt the stance of refusing to bow to any human being because they think it shows subservience would stick to that uncompromising approach if they visited Japan?

If so they would certainly be considered a bit rude/boorish in some situations there. In Japan you are also expected to bow from the waist with a straight back. In the UK with the Royals a bow is done with a head nod only (which objectively seems much less of a “subservient” physical action, and for many people a head nod is just a way of greeting someone). A quick head nod is a far cry from the “bowing and scraping” you see referred to (which suggests some sort of Elizabethan style flourish with your head almost down to the floor!)

As physical actions go, it might seem just as silly to wave your hand in the air and expect someone to grasp it and shake it when you first meet them. You could also argue that it is “subservient” to open a door for someone and let them go first, even knowing they might never do the same for you. You might still do it though as you consider it to be polite.

For some people it seems that you can’t show respect without simultaneously showing subservience, but for others there is no link between those two concepts.

Culture and etiquette is really complex but it is interesting to dig in to why some things can feel utterly normal, while others might feel weird, even offensive to some people but not to others. Most of the time it just seems to come down to very subjective feelings.

I agree.
Utterly daft.

A hand shake is very different- it suggests equality between the two people.
Likewise, in Japan, most often people bow to each other, not one to the other, unless it's someone who has earned respect- not through accident of birth but by earned position.

A handshake is to prove you're not armed.

@Nesbo Bowing in Japan is very different to bowing or curtsying to a member of the royal family. Bowing in Japan is typically a mutual sign of respect, with a little emphasis if you want to show extra respect to someone older or more senior. They would still bow to you though. It's a mutual exchange of respect.

That's very different to bowing 'at' a member of the Royal Family while they look on. Imagine you were King Charles and someone older who has maybe done something heroic or who has gone through something very difficult bowed 'at' you? I would not want that if I were the King. It's not right. People should be respectful of each other.

Shaking hands to prove you are not armed underlines the ridiculousness of it. No one who shakes hands believes this is a requirement, it is a thing they do because it is done, not for any useful purpose.

with bowing in Japan, the depth of the bow can indicate status, so you might bow more deeply to someone older than you than they would bow to you, or an employee might bow more deeply to their boss, a student to a teacher etc.

@ReneBumsWombats

It’s because the response "you have to respect that some people feel differently than you" implies in one breath that a) I don't respect or understand that others should have a differing opinion (so I’m just making the point that we are allowed to disagree and I’ve never said we’re not) and b) you in fact take issue with what I think (why do you care what I care? The implication is that it was under discussion...).

I'm not "declaring" everyone else is aggrieved, I'm querying the double standard.

Surely I'm just able to air my opinions here? Meaningful debate is debating the substantive issue - not just trying to shut people down with an unhelpful "people are allowed to think differently than you!".

Sorry @CallMeLinda it may have been unfair of me to call you into that last post


It’s because the response "you have to respect that some people feel differently than you" implies in one breath that a) I don't respect or understand that others should have a differing opinion

But you don't understand or respect it. You said so yourself:

"I think it's a case of not understanding why others would want to do it in the first place. I for one can't understand why someone would voluntarily make a show of their inferiority (or vice versa be on the receiving end of a show of superiority)."

And went on to call it "silly".

And when I said that you didn't have to understand it, and of course you are allowed to think it silly, you accused me of becoming "aggrieved".

You don't even know whether I'd choose to curtsy or not!

The only double standard here is yours, although maybe it's just plain old dishonesty and back pedalling. If you do understand and respect other people's points of view, don't state otherwise. And don't start the whole "why are YOU getting so aggrieved" nonsense to try to imply that you're the only one who's calm and considered and everyone who disagrees is just irrational. It's not fooling anyone.

Nobody cares if you don't want to curtsy, including the royals. Don't want to, don't do it. It's not invalid just because, by your own admission, you don't understand it.

So do I 😊

Blimey.

I'm sorry if it sounded like back pedalling but I thought I made the point that "I don't understand why people do it" is my shorthand for "it's not for me sorry and from a socio-political pov I think it's outdated"

At the risk of sounding like a broken record it's just my opinion. I thought that was what this board was for?

Think I need a tea now.

I don’t genuflect as I’m not religious, but I still try to behave very respectfully in churches or other places of worship, because I know they are important to other people who do believe.

Perhaps there is something in that that could apply to this topic? Some people will behave in a certain way not because they necessarily believe in it themselves, but because they feel it might be important to, or appreciated by other people around them.

It brings it back to the feeling that you do certain things not out of “subservience”, but more out of a feeling of respect and consideration for other people’s feelings.

You can perceive a decision to nod your head or curtsy as an act of kindness/generosity, particularly because for you it is a choice (just as an atheist might choose not to speak loudly in a church, or put their feet up on the pews whilst playing Tetris on their phone!).

I for one can't understand why someone would voluntarily make a show of their inferiority

That’s your interpretation. I’ll stick with Eleanor Roosevelt and her assertion that nobody can make me feel inferior without my consent. Curtsying wouldn’t make me feel inferior so there would be no show outside your head.

It's respectful.
I LIKE respect.

It's only one way respect. I like to show my respect to people but having a one sided display is weird and old fashioned. Why would someone want other people to bow to them. That's arrogant. I know it's not compulsory but by saying it's personal choice still
Shows that the Royal Family think it's ok for their subordinates to bow to them

You don't owe me an apology. Just don't say that you don't understand something if you do. And you don't need to remind us that you're allowed to give your opinion. Nobody disputed that.

You don't want to curtsy, fine. Some people do and it doesn't have the same meaning for them as it does for you.

by saying it's personal choice stillShows that the Royal Family think it's ok for their subordinates to bow to them

They curtsy and bow to more senior royals, including kings and queens of other countries, so it would look a bit weird if they said other people shouldn't ever do it. In a funny way, it would actually seem quite exclusive, as if it's a gesture reserved to be among royals. Plus, some people just like tradition and a bit of show and want to. It isn't appropriate for the royals to push people one way or the other.

They've made it clear that there's no obligatory behaviour and a handshake is fine. I think it's fine if someone wants to address me as The Most Beautiful Woman Who Ever Lived but that doesn't mean I'm bothered if they don't. Much.

@ReneBumsWombats :-)

I read this recently in the news from one of the women who founded the women’s equality party

“...Her re-enactment for Netflix of curtseying to the Queen instantly drew ire, real and confected, for supposed disrespect to the memory of her grandmother-in-law. Nobody curtsies like that, critics harrumphed. They’re wrong. When I was researching my biography of King Charles, I discovered his female staff were running a competition to see who could perform the deepest curtsey without falling over. A former girlfriend of his also confided that protocol demanded she curtsey to him, leading one evening to a clash of heads when he mistimed an attempt to kiss her.”

When I was much younger, The Andrew formerly known as Prince, and Fergie came to visit my NHS workplace. We were all instructed how to curtsey to them.
To my deep shame and regret I did.
Never again.

I don't know about you, but I loved this bow ...